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An article on today's Guardian site.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/02/men-women-bra...
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Comments
Interesting
but hardly surprising. The "we're all the same except for societal influence" crap of years ago has long been proven fallacious. From what I've studied, a lot of the interconnections that happen during puberty are facilitated by the presence of estrogen in relatively high concentrations. There may be some predisposition toward type of connectivity, or it may be simply the hormone soup during puberty. It does match the articles I've read that indicate a MTF will undergo irreversible changes in brain chemistry under the influence of female hormones.
Might explain why, after my hormones have been so messed up (without hormone therapy! - exceedingly low T, high E and progesterone!) I feel - and co-workers have noticed - a change in my social skills and behaviors. I'll admit that I'm more sensitive emotionally than I used to be. It'd be interesting to see if the interconnectivity of my brain has shifted as a result of the endocrine issues.
All I can conclude is that anyone who thinks they can figure out the incredibly complex multi-feedback-loop control system that is the human body is a fool. It's infinitely complex, and exceedingly beautifully crafted - and that's just from an engineering viewpoint.
Imagination is more important than knowledge
A. Einstein
Pull up the easy chair
and throw some popcorn in the microwave.
If you want to watch the backlash from people who can't stand to have their political preconceptions stomped on. I've already seen one tweet from a science writer I usually respect that calls for someone to "debunk that male/female brain nonsense."
Xaltatun
This is little surprise for
This is little surprise for anyone who's not a gender feminist. Obviously men and women's brains would be wired differently since the behavior is decidedly different. Social stuff can explain many things, but not to this extend.
Although I'm not quite sure what those pictures are supposed to show exactly.
Details
For people who don't know what the study actually did: they used a technique called "tensor diffusion imaging" which traces the connections between brain areas. Just like all brain imaging techniques, it's not perfect. It has difficulties with curves and can easily miss very narrow connections.
To give a sense of context: there have been studies that show some psychopaths (not all, probably not even most) have a missing (or at least too narrow to image) connection between areas that could be implicated in empathy.
The images are a connection map. Without knowing more about what they're connecting, there's no way to even guess at what they mean. I suppose they're in the articles because of the "oh, wow!" factor.
At least . .
. . some of the comments are actually thoughtful!
Though there are enough stupid one too.
Unfortunately It will probably take them at least another fifty years(I likely wont be around that long) before they have any clue what it really means. That is if it does not get all tangle up in some sort of political correctness or fundamentalist objections or struggle between both.
Also there is how people may apply the data. I see several commenters taking it for ill or good that it means no equal opportunities or rights, women should do women stuff and men men stuff. They losing sight of individuals and variance.
Wired differently? Maybe not. . . .
So the whole thing is supposed to be that men and women are wired differently. I wonder. The brain is so very versatile and can adapt to changing situations, such as regaining motor skills after a stroke, the brain forging alternate neural pathways. Bunch of years ago, an article in "Scientific American" told about an experiment where college volunteers were given prism glasses to wear that turned everything one saw upside down - played hell, of course, with coordinating arm movement. After 3 days of uninterrupted (except in the dark) wearing of the glasses, the first of the students woke up in the morning, put on the glasses, turned on the light and was astounded to find that the brain had adapted, that everything was now right side up! Taking off the glasses now turned everything upside down!!
For my feeling, change the word "wired" to "connected" and I'd be agreed - neural connections are different, but then we're back to chicken or egg, and how much our cultural conditioning plays a role, how much repeated behavior determines which pathways are chosen, which regions of the brain are more used. Boys are taught to be strong, silent types, showing no emotions, where girls are taught verbal skills to compensate for their comparative physical lack of brute strength.
I guess I'm just not as widely read as Elrod ("The,'we're all the same except for societal influence' crap of years ago has long been proven fallacious"), so I don't know which studies he is refering to - seems to me that we are all in the same boat at birth, everybody has the dolly or Teddy and is an emotional bundle of joy, then comes the conditioning (Boys don't play with dolls, etc., boys don't cry, boys kick ass, girls are sugar and spice, girls do cry, etc.). Role models are assigned and become ingrained, and then it becomes "us" and "them", in an effort to be part of the group ("Boys are yucky", "Girls are ewwwww"). This is certainly not hormonal at this point, is it? A few years later comes the soup and sex is discovered after marked physical changes, on which probably all are agreed. But, even then, conditioning still steers the ship (a good girl doesn't do that, a boy has to feel his oats, be a man).
The only question I guess I reallyI have is, do estrogens really lead to STYD ("shop 'til you drop")? ;-)
Hugs,
Miriam
I like shoping.
Does that help put me on the girly side?
My wife, Marian ...
... hates shopping and is a brilliant map reader. Does that put her on the boy side? OTOH she likes embroidery and made her own wedding dress; she's also a an excellent cook. So that puts her on the girlie side? She's not a brilliant toxophilist, though :)
I'm not entirely convinced by this. I would think it's more a tendency than a definite feature. Rather like all men are stronger than all women which certainly isn't the case.
Robi
My mommy
Is like that too. She hates shopping, she likes to go in there get what she's looking for and leave. My daddy however will spend hours and hours trying to find what looks good at the mall. My mommy and I suck at cooking, my daddy and brothers are amazing at it xD
Stereotypes are a waste of time mew :D
Though admittedly I LOVE shopping I guess I"ve always been a daddy's girl :p
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
I beg to differ
It is well known that the Brains of Lefties and Righties are wired differently. So why not Men and Women?
As a leftie and with the certainly that I don't think like any man I've ever met I know I'm different from others of my gender. Now does my bum look big in this skirt? :)
;-)
;-)
Welcome.
Welcome to the nature vs nurture argument.
The quick answer is "yes." or both.
Thank you for playing.
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Any Votes
Can we find any support for WIRELESS?
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Gender lies along a spectrum
It would be interesting to see if those doing the studies included any known gays or lesbians, and even a few of those who believe they are trans-gendered. My guess is that they purposely chose those who are as opposite as possible, perhaps to firmly establish the statistical limits.
It would be interesting to see what lay in the middle ground.
G
BS
Complete and utter BS, their data is absolutely useless because Social indoctrinization starts even earlier than 8 years old.. To get TRUE data they'd have to get infants brains right as they come out of the womb and before anyone said anything (as in IT"S A GIRL! IT"S A BOY! *random banter added here that the baby hears*) but the problem is it's probably dangerous to do that with babies.
If it wasn't, and you could get consent of pregnant parents and have scientists on standby as soon as the baby was born THEN do a scan of a boy or girls brain and see what happens then. But that'll never happen mew because any longterm effects of such a scan could be horrendous for the poor child.
So basically in conclusion, don't believe biased BS that doesn't have all the facts mew. There have been MULTIPLE studies that prove the other side of the coin too. And they also have "irrefutable" evidence.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Thanks, Angie!
I've been hearing and reading things like this for some years. I guess this is just the most conclusive study; most data, least chance results were random or from some other cause than the hypothesis. I hope we can soon get info like this on trans brains and before and after HRT.
I think my ideas here differ from those of Miriam Russer, and to some extent our own sweet Chelsea. (hi, girl!) 8)
>> Male and female brains showed few differences in connectivity up to the age of 13, but became more differentiated in 14- to 17-year-olds. <<
I guess this phenomena and the sexual (genderal) dimorphism shown in the study is distinct from the development of what could be called the 'gender identity' of the brain. I think gender identity is fixed before or around birth because gender affects behavior soon after birth. This is probably most easily seen in the cis gender brained, as in the above study. I think infants soon figure out who 'mommy' is, then realize that there are other big creatures that are not mommy. Big/other people are individuals; these individuals are soon grouped in categories, maybe: ones like mommy(ies), ones like daddy(ies) and other categories like smaller ones and can't tell. Next, smaller ones (children) are seen as different genders and the can't tell category grows smaller.
Children have to learn nearly all behaviors; they learn by copying others they interact with. Since young children mostly have some gender specific behavior, they have to have some idea of the gender of the people around them and knowledge of their own gender, so they know (or get right most of the time) which people's behavior to copy. Learned (copied) behaviors vary a lot, but we know there is some correlation between brain gender and gender typical activities copied from adults and other children. How could these differentiated behaviors be learn without the baby having some clue about its gender? If an infant, toddler and older child had no idea of er own gender, why wouldn't E copy all behavior by other people? If such a child did this, er behavior would probably be of mix of behaviors of both genders (which obviously happens, but not commonly) or er behavior would be that of the gender E was around most. This also happens and results in some cross gendered behavior in, say, a boy raised around wimyn and girls or a girl raised among guys, but just a little exposure to a same gender role model usually results in some or a lot of cis gendered behavior in the kid. I'm saying that all little boys only raised around wimyn and girls are not pansies and if they don't know much boy behavior, most will quickly learn it when placed with both girls and boys like at (pre)school. So, such boys seem to have cis-gender ID'ed brains.
Some behavior in small children, like activity level, might come from hormones or innate nervous system development, but the distributions of children's activity levels by gender or sex widely overlap. Little boy's average activity level, crawling, running, exploring, might be higher than the little girl's average, but it varies widely from kid to kid. These innate differences might be more influenced by the body-sex of the child than by the brain gender, because not everything is learned. I just say that gender differentiated behaviors seem very much to be learned.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Gender before birth
I'm around a lot of LDS women and it seems pretty universal that they believe they can often tell the gender of a baby while they are carrying it. And, some steadfastly refuse to be told the gender of the child before it is born.
I also wonder how much is our nature and how much is programing. I remember when I was very young that there were people like Mom, and there were those who were not like her and they were ugly, repulsive monsters.
Would things have been different if the males around me were caring and supportive?
G
Are we surprised?
Hi,
Yes, I read the article. It was very interesting. A nice piece of work.
It's nice to understand the reasons behind what we've known all our lives. Of course, this is just one of the many ways in which 'male' and 'female' brains differ. And, I'm sure that the amateurs will ascribe differentiations that don't exist in much the same manner they accord 'Left Brain' vs 'Right Brain.'
It's good science and will lead to much greater understanding of mental functions. However, just as 'Left Brain' vs 'Right Brain' leads to absurd differentiations, so will this research be taken out of context. This will invariably lead to discriminatory practices, based on the supposed mental capacities of men or women.
Red MacDonald
More popcorn
Like I said earlier, nuke some popcorn, pull up an easy chair and prepare to watch the show.
The first response from an actual professional I've seen is here:
https://theconversation.com/are-men-better-wired-to-read-map...
It was repeated at his blog, here: http://mindhacks.com/2013/12/03/are-men-better-wired-to-read...
and there's a rather biting reply. I've followed Professor Stafford for some years, and IMO he's quite good when he sticks to his actual field of expertise: psychology. As he says up front, he's not really qualified to interpret the technical details of the study. Neither am I, for that matter. He does show a pronounced bias toward "gender is entirely socially constructed," which I don't share. My bias is that gender affiliation is innate, in the same sense that sexual preference is innate, and, like sexual preference, we have no clue about the details of how it works on a genetic or brain structure level.
Xaltatun
ANd the study is
ANd the study is correct.
Remember, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. Because, at one point, they were true.
My own feelings
This is one aspect of a very complex and individual situation. It proves nothing but opens up new areas for research, however, I suspect identifying the differences between the sexes is somewhat frivolous when there are people with serious brain injuries and diseases.
I would repeat that I have no interest in finding out why I became what I am, I don't need to justify it to anyone, nor does anyone else. If they do, I suggest they think again.
Angharad
We keep looking for the ghost in the machine.
There is something about the magic of being who we are that makes some of the scientific only portion of our species more than just a little squirmy.
Science is a disassembled cat. Nothing like a real one assembled and purring in one's lap. Science is a bit like me as a kid of 3 taking apart an alarm clock. I got an Idea what was in the clock but I still had no Idea how it worked.
There is a vast portion of our mind that we have no Idea what it can do or why we have it. Like our so called junk DNA it will take a while before we have any general idea.
Not all ghosts need to be exercised some serve functions we do not understand, and I am ok not knowing everything and just being me. It works for lady bugs and butterflies.
Bailie's misbehaving Fairy
Huggles
With those with open eyes the world reads like a book
Not done yet
Do not think I am against science I am not. My degree is in Oceanography and has served me well during my life. Science allows us to put a mental net around what we see or experience. But beware it has its short comings, it can only measure what we know. And misses the meaning of a sunset or the secrets of the heart.
Huggles
With those with open eyes the world reads like a book
These Comments and The Links Provided
Are extremely interesting. I like this link: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-diff...
The research group is trying to find a difference between cis and trans brained children for better timely diagnosis and treatment with blockers then HRT. I wish them good luck.
"The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades".... Of course world agricultural production may tank because of global heating/climate change and land lost to rising sea levels, but what can ya do?
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Gender / sexuality isn't all black and white
as everyone here well knows. I agree with the "it's a spectrum" point - but disagree sharply with the "we're all the same until social programming kicks in." If that were true, why would boys, raised as boys, conditioned to be boys, nonetheless 'feel' female? Why wouldn't the socialization rule the system? Because it's an incredibly complex system with interaction of both genetics and socialization. Nobody knows the exact answer to the 'nature vs. nurture' debate - and probably never will.
Stereotypes are a too-broad generalization of the law of averages. In general, men are larger and stronger than women - but that's as a collective. The rule doesn't always hold, but it is a useful (and sometimes abused) predictor. They're not 100% accurate. If you observe a very small group of people, you might come to one generalization about the group and its components, but a larger group could yield different results. Sexuality and gender are general characteristics. Some reputed behaviors, characteristics, and skills of girls and boys are generalizations of properties which may or may not be innate, or they could be conditioned, and they most certainly will vary from person to person.
Is a female brain connected differently from a male brain? The generalized evidence of left-brain, right-brain skills as evidenced by functional MRI / SPET scanning suggests that they are. From whence does that come? It's too big a variable space to determine. Does one's preferences as to outcome or pre-conceived notions invalidate the conclusion reached? No - only more research will prove or disprove the hypothesis - which will stir more emotional debates on the whole nature vs. nurture theme.
My short take is - we're all different. There's no black/white separation, just like with everything in life. But that doesn't mean that some generalizations aren't useful as we go through our lives - as long as we remember that (just like in quantum physics) the properties of one part cannot be precisely determined from the aggregate properties of the collection of all parts. That doesn't mean, though, that we should not study the aggregate properties - just like in this study.
Imagination is more important than knowledge
A. Einstein