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Comments and Voting -- What Does It Mean?
I don't have a clue of comments or voting mean anything. I've written, read, edited anough stories to have a fairly good idea what passes for good writing in this genre.
During the last three weeks I've posted seven stories on Fictionmania that were also posted on BigCloset.
I'll list them in order from the best quality story, in my opinion, to the story that is the worst quality of the seven. I will list how many comments I received on Fictionmania, how many comments on BigCloset and how many votes on BigCloset.
How I would Rank Them in Order of Quality. The Number Following Indicates the Votes Received on BigCloset.
1. Carl's Eyes 3
2. Exitus Acta Probat 4
3. Chelsea Drugstore 6
4. Do What You Wanna Do 6
5. Lucky Russo 12
6. And It Feels So Good 4
7. A Dollar Short 5
Some of these are stories that were posted first before voting started, but wouldn't you think a story like Chelsea Drugstore would get more than six votes just by accident?
The first number after the story is the number of comments on Fictionmania and the second on BigCloset.
1. Carl's Eyes FM 0 BC 1
2. Exitus Acta Probat FM 1 BC 6
3. Chelsea Drugstore FM 2 (Both Negative) BC 9 (All seemingly positive)
4. Do What You Wanna Do FM 2 BC 8
5. Lucky Russo FM 0 BC 6
6. And It Feels So Good FM 10 BC 11
7. A Dollar Short FM 5 BC 8
So -- either I can't judge my own work -- or the number of votes or comments don't mean a thing.
I have concluded a few things --
There is no doubt whatsoever that posting on BigCloset is a more positive experience for me than posting on Fictionmania.
The voting thing is meaningless. Note Chelsea Drugstore where nine people left positive comments and the story received six votes -- two of those from me, no doubt.
The number of comments has much more to do with the number of online pals you have than it has to do with any other factor. When I see a new story by an author who has posted several stories, I can almost guess who will make a positive comment. I almost can guess who will comment on mine.
People are quicker to comment on negative things than they are on positive. If your spelling, grammar, or facts are suspect, you will receive comments.
Jill M I
Your standards for your work ...
... are different from how your work affects people and what they take away from it. Your assessment of its quality is not the same as how it touches those who read it. That doesn't mean either evaluation is suspect, by the way -- you're just looking at apples and oranges and trying to make them the same. *grins* They aren't.
And of course the people who liked your previous stories will be first in line to comment on the ones that follow after -- because they liked your previous work! And they'll probably like the new stories just as much as they did the first ones of yours they read, because what you write -- the themes, the situations, the people -- touches them, and they want more.
The audience takes what they can from what the artist provides. If it's pleasing, they let us know.
What matters in the end is that you keep writing. *hugs*
Randalynn
Why, Randalynn?
***The audience takes what they can from what the artist provides. If it's pleasing, they let us know.***
Exactly -- NOT. That is the whole point.
I can't think of a reason in the world I would keep on writing if I believed what you said. If your point is valid -- my writings have no relevance to the thousand who read them at FM and don't leave a comment.
I prefer to believe comments and votes mean nothing.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Okay, I was too low-key
SOME people, when they are moved by what you write, write back. Others don't. That doesn't mean comments mean nothing --or that the lack of comments means anything.
Truth is, i enjoy it when people tell me they like my work. And that's enough for me. *smile*
In the end, I don't write for them. I write because i HAVE to, or I'll explode. And since I prefer to be a UXR (Un eXploded Randa), I'm just fine with whatever response I get.
Randalynn
Commenting
I'll be honest so far I haven't read any of them on either site.....haven't had time. But then again, I still haven't figured out how to post a vote anyway. And by the time I do get around to reading them, I'll probably be too stupid to go back and post a comment. But if its any consolation, I usually do like to read your scribblings.
Voting
To post a vote for a story simply click on the box that says Vote next to the title in the full display of the story.
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I don't think I've ever voted here
I really should but I prefer to comment as it gives the writer and reader more info to go on.
I will say this, even Angela's more over-the-top stories are a good read even if I may not like the subject. Often I do and I do try to comment if I can say something worth while.
Yes, Angela, I know I am dying on Shannon's Course, and after you kindly sent me the new and improved version months ago. I feel like a bad boy. I will review it, I promise. I just don't want to do a rush job of it.
God knows why we get or do not get a responce from the readers here and at other sites. I haven't a clue.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
You Pat My Back and I'll Pat Yours
There, John - does that make it any easier for you to understand?
Votes and comments are very much a good 'ol girl network. We try so hard to leave our male attributes behind, but have retained our primary social structure.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I voted once
I voted once on BC. Then I found out that voting simply increased a counter and didn't ask you for a score. Since then, I've never voted again, but using comments to voice my opinion. I see no point in having a number for people who liked a story.
The only number I find usefull is a score that tells me how well they liked it. On http://storiesonline.net such score helps me decide what to read and when I should not bother.
Hugs,
Kimby
Hugs,
Kimby
Why voting is as it is
When it was possible to vote a score, a number of people made a practice of loballing stories. The current system prevents that and yes, authors do find a point in knowing how many people like a story.
The score method is open to a number of abuses, the simpler count method to fewer. Vote or don't vote, your choice, but I don't use the score method because I tried it and it takes too much policing to make it fair and representative.
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Oh, dare I comment?
Well as usual I agree and I don't. Yes, contrary thing aint I. Can you tell who will comment on one of mine or yours or whoevers? Maybe... with limited success. As to what they mean. It is... ' I read and understood'... and then maybe a... 'but...' or a... 'great...' or a ...'not bad'.
Whatever it still means something.
BC is far kinder and more politely discriminating than FM. You are far more likely to get dumped on for crap grammar or spelling there than here. I posted one there a while back...not a thing, plus I have no idea how many may have read. Here, nine comments I think. Am I going to run away crying? No, but if it happened often enough I may well stop. And if I did... the world would not end, though some few might be saddened. Most would shrug and go..Oh well.
I do not expect sycophancy, ever. If someone wants to question or criticise that's fine, just do so politely. Public or private I don't mind. Perfect, me? Hardly, I make mistakes and typos and use words that are misunderstood. Sometimes I'm even a little unclear. I do not write specifically for comments, they're sort of the cherry on top. So why? Well, that's a whole other topic. Votes, unless somethings up with my settings I don't have any at all, but I haven't posted a story recently. Hey I'll live. Not everyone likes what I do or say or how I say it maybe. So it goes. I have tried to guess who might find something worthy of comment and I usually fail miserably. Shrug...
So...even if you feel inadequate, not got the words, well it means something for you to try. A story might be written in a few hours, some take months, literally. A bit here a bit here a bit there. Do you always need to? No absolutely not. No one does or should. But if you think something worthy....just say so. Costs ya NUTHIN. But it means SUMTHIN.
Or maybe I'm just a gripey whining would be scribbler tyring for relevance. Yeah just ignore me... I'll go away eventually. And if enough say and do that.....
Kristina
I'm Not Crying, Kristina
As far as stopping -- after a while, when the pain of rejection surpasses the small amount of acceptance, what's the point?
I started writing for self-examination. At that point I found a need within TG fiction to write things that carried a message. Then it became a challenge to learn what works and what doesn't. The process here no longer supports my last goal.
I study everything I can about the science of writing. I read three writer's magazines and at least two writing how-to books a month. Then I try to put what I learned into practice, hoping to garner some positive feedback -- and gain frustration.
I've already stepped away from writing for Hatbox. Editing also has become less and less enjoyable. For every writer who advances through my efforts there are three or four who simply disappear, or who lack the follow through or desire to actually write something of worth. It becomes tedious to spend hours editing a piece to later realize the writer was just having intercourse with the mutt.
As you said, Kristina, if enough say and do that. . . . Perhaps the best thing I can do for this site is addition by subtraction.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I will not presume
To tell you what to do or how. You right some great stories, even had one in my top ten... yeah I know, don't let it go to your head. We each have our reasons and motivations. As I said once before I agree with a lot you say, if not always how. We are similar in some respects, but we come at it from different directions, with different views and experience. You may well be a better writer than me, many no doubt are, I can live with that.
There is however one thing you said above that bothers me a little. It always has with you. That is the 'studying' and 'how to books'. Now they may have much that is worthwhile and there are no doubt lessons to be learnt, I'm just stubborn and oppinionated.
But...there is one thing... back when I started playing music semi professionally. Anyone can learn and play the notes, but there is no feeling, it's mechanical. To really play, you learn it all... then forget it... and just play.
Easier said... of course and I don't mean to imply you are mechanical or lack feeling. But it seems you look to that too much and maybe sometimes it gets in the way. So don't subtract.... just let it flow. Now you can stomp on my toe and tell me to piss off....
'Yes'mm, Miss Angela, I's a goin'...'
respectfully
Kristina
You have to be able to read the damned thing though...
Art is always subjective, literature is no different, but where the written word is concerned, you do have to be able to read it and it should flow nicely.
That said, we're not professionals and sometimes the idea is more important than the end result. No amount of book or magazine reading will give you that idea, that spark of creativity, but practice makes perfect.
I don't think anyone starts as a professional and I for one have a need to write. It's like Dubledore's Pensive - it helps clear my head and I will continue to poke my words at the page my way and if it sounds good to me then that's what I strove to achieve. If others like it too, then paint me red and call me Susan - Yippee!
If not, I had darned good fun doing it.
The science of writing?
Angela,
Writing isn't a science. Yes, there are some things that make some writing better written than others, structure, ease of understanding, a point, for example.
Structure is variable, but some kind of structure is essential in the story, in the chapters, in the paragraphs, in the sentences. Structure helps a reader follow what is going on, and it helps the writer to know what to do to get his or her idea across. When I'm writing a piece of fiction or something non-fiction, structure always comes first.
Ease of understanding includes not writing above a readers head and grammar and punctuation. It also overlaps structure a bit because structure facilitates understanding. The point a writer is trying to put across can be totally lost because of poor grammar or punctuation.
Every story should have a point. To make this point requires some conflict, a protagonist, and a conclusion. "Here's what my day was like" is not a story, maybe a diary entry, but not a story. Often in TG stories, the conflict is internal.
Now, I do not think that you don't know this, but if you think this has anything to do with science, you are wrong. In science results are reproducible. That isn't true of writing or other arts. There may be a college of arts and sciences in a university, but believe me they seldom mix and when they do it's, usually, not well.
I can feel your frustration, and I've felt it myself in many areas of my life. However, having people comment on your work doesn't make the work better or worse. On this web site, I have read some comments praising a story and its writer extravagantly. However, the story was poorly structured, full of errors that confounded understanding, and had no point. I have also read some really vile comments, not here, on works that were very well written. People write what they want to write.
Some people truly analyze the writing and make intelligent appraisal of the work; others write about their own feelings, how the story made them feel for better or worse; some have an axe to grind and take the opportunity to grind it on the author; some seem to have have nothing on their minds but hurting others, still others seem to have nothing on their minds but being polite, giving the author a hug; and my particular favorite, some want to tell the writer what the plot should have been, or what it should be in the following chapters.
None of that, no matter what the motivation, affects your writing. If what people said actually changed anything, I would ask everyone to write me and tell me I'm thin. That would be wonderful, but it doesn't work that way.
Think of all of the great works we would not have today if artists let public reaction or lack of reaction influence them. Writers, painters, sculptors, musicians all produce work and, of course, hope for recognition, but recognition doesn't always come, and that has nothing to do with the quality of the work. Expressing yourself, ultimately, has to be its own reward. Writers write because they have something to say.
Keep saying what you have to say and striving to write well because you want to, but forget about scientifically and forget about back patting. In the long run, back patting means no more than butt kicking, and it doesn't mean much.
LoriAnn
LoriAnn
Your conclusions are in line with my thoughts, however a science is something that requires study and method. Those who think they can learn how to write by simply writing, or by listening to those who have no more knowledge of writing than they do, are about as clueless as a Harold Hill led band.
Yes -- writing involves extensive study and, as your post suggested, a great deal of method.
I also agree with Kristina L. S. seems to be saying, in that telling a good story is an innate quality, where we differ is in transcribing that oral story to paper. I belive good methodology helps you take the step from storyteller to author. She has indicated a concern about methodology getting in the way.
I suppose it could, but I will take my chances.
For the record I don't use an Erlenmeyer flask to measure and separate my novel plots into beaker-sized chapters.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Changing reality
Quoting: "If what people said actually changed anything, I would ask everyone to write me and tell me I'm thin. That would be wonderful, but it doesn't work that way."
Years ago I saw an episode of Xena where Gabrielle somehow (I forgot how exactly) got the power of having everything she wrote become true in reality. Please no calling me names for having watched Xena episodes.
I have to say I do disagree with your assumption that what people say doesn't change anything. To stay with your example: if enough people would tell you that you're thin, you wouldn't loose any weight but perhaps you would become less obsessed with the idea that you're fat. There's heaps of people who think of themselves as being fat without that actually being so.
If what people said didn't matter, then nobody would speak. If what people wrote didn't matter, this site would not exist. The stories on this website will not magically give you the body of some beauty (visit FM for that: they claim such changes ;)), but they - hopefully - make you feel better about yourself, give you hope and give you friends. I'd definatelly call that 'change'.
Hugs,
Kimby
Hugs,
Kimby
Writing, voting, scoring, etc.
BC is one of very few sites on which I read stories. I think that I have read only a couple of stories on FM. Even though I'm retired, I really don't have the time or inclination to trawl all the sites for material to read. My favourite authors (I won't list them here - it would be unfair) keep me well entertained. If a new story appeals to me then I will add that author to my list.
I don't know about voting or scoring, I've not done it. I comment on many of the stories that appeal to me, but not on every episode. I usually only make favourable comments - if I have nothing to say, I say nothing.
Susie
Freedom of Choice
At the end of the day, we all visit these sites - either to write or read , or both, because we choose to. We are lucky that they exist, in some cultures we'd have the Thought Police round in the middle of the night.
We all take what we want from what we do, Angela enjoys a very structured, logical form of writing, sometimes I wish I had the discipline to do the same. However, that wouldn't be my style which is more spontaneous, I watch as the characters do their own thing before my eyes, or inside my head. So I choose not to structure things very much, I had enough of that writing reports or essays. So my writing is a form of play.
So keep doing what you do, because it's what you get out of it that drives you on. As for votes and comments, I prefer to see how many have read it, if that stays at zero I'll stop posting.
Good luck to all the writers and readers here, keep exercising your freedom to choose and thanks to Erin for the opportunity to do so.
Angharad
Write-on Angharad
I think you've just managed to say what we all feel - well done!
The part about watching the characters grow before your eyes is what makes me keep writing. It's weird, but I find they take on something akin to a life of their own and like an automatic car, they seem to do the work for me, I just have to be there to steer and then only sometimes!
I write much that like film editing, ends up on the cutting-room floor; ideas that get so far then stop and sometimes I have spent days or longer working on them. Nevertheless, I keep plodding along and then an idea hits me and off I go, rarely in control and often just along for the ride.
That's my way of doing it. It may not be the best way or the 'right' way, but it works and I know this because people keep reading what I do, perhaps not in the numbers that read Harry Potter, but then we all have to start somewhere don't we?