What is peoples opinion on getting private messages, tell them about gramatical errors(wrong words) in their stories, not caught by their editors.
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That's "what ARE people's opinion"
Sorry, kidding there.
I've done it maybe five times in three years; usually when it's a mistake that is unintentionally humorous ("With a savage roar the octapus reared its testicles at me"), and PM-ing discretely seemed better than commenting it. But ordinary grammar, punctuation mistakes and mispellings aren't my business. If there's more than one per sentence and it actually interferes with a story being comprehensible I might recommend a spellchecker or proofreader. To me there's such a thing as loose grammar, that may not be by-the-book perfect but it conveys the author's personality, a warm anecdotal quality to the story, or that the story's action is coming so hot and heavy right then that the teller might lapse from perfect grammar. I'd rather read something imperfect but human than something that reads like a bloodless grammar machine wrote it.
There's a breed of reader I call the compulsive grammarian, and when that's ALL they have to say about a story it's annoying as hell. Like they're not reading the story, don't have any interest in what you've tried to say in it but are just reading your grammar to see if it lives up to their standards. If I mention grammar mistakes or anything plotwise or whatever that I think might be improved somehow I try to also mention what I liked about the story. And that's about all I got to say about that.
~~~hugs, Laika
Well shit, I guess it really CAN happen here..,
.
On the whole, the authors
On the whole, the authors seem to be very good about accepting corrections for grammar, spelling, and syntax. (btw, you misspelled grammatical :) )
In at least one case, there was also a correction for math. One of those "We had X, take away Y, and now we have X-Y+N left". Huh? )
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Grammatical Errors in Stories
In my opinion, it's a good thing, better than people listing mistakes in comments.
What inevitably seems to happen is that the author or an editor will then go and fix the mistake, rendering some or all of the comment redundant.
Spelling, grammatical errors and other mechanical writing problems are something I feel quite strongly about. When I'm reading a story, such problems grate and pull me away from my immersion in the work. There are some authors here whose works are such good stories that I'll overlook these difficulties and persist.
Sadly to say, I won't give other authors the opportunity. If the story's teaser has problems, then for me that's a sign that the author hasn't bothered to proof their work, so why should I bother with such sloppy material?
I can't think of one author whom I've PM'd about a problem in their writing that hasn't been grateful, and upon accepting that there is a problem, done something about it.
I've been posting the works of another author here on BCTS in edited form. Despite the best of intentions and the skill of the editor(s), typos do slip through, and I would much rather a PM than a comment.
Being told that your baby is ugly is a slightly different issue, but if the message is about mechanical issues, then I'd be all for it. After all, what author doesn't want to attract readers and give them the best experience possible?
Peculiar Syntax
Bike Resources
Bike Resources
One place...
One place where grammar errors may be intentional (and okay) is in dialog... But, that depends on the grammar error. For example, one grammar rule is that you don't end sentences with dangling participles. However, it's quite common to hear them in conversation.
Spelling's another area... It's important for us to remember that spelling does differ from country to country - sometimes quite dramatically. (Just look at Aluminium and Aluminum - Symbol AL, Atomic number 13...). SOME authors attempt to modify their spelling - to match where their stories take place. But, that's too hard for most (or me, anyway).
Word usage is another area again... Folks in the US & UK use the same word for very different things (far more than I knew, when I started one bit of work). Most folks here don't mind the author using the "wrong" term in narrative, but seeing a native speaker of your country use words from the other side of the pond can be as grating. (I had at least one reader of my Hidden Gifts story comment to this effect - and eventually give up on the story I think - despite my efforts by finding a second British editor)...
As I say in my other post - PM away... Just be aware that the author may have reasons to not "correct" what you perceive as an error.
Anne
Messages
I take it as it is meant. Usually nicely.
I'm happy to receive them
I do miss things and so my editors, and I prefer to resolve mistakes than leave them there. Grammar is sometimes a question of opinion, spelling - can be an issue with UK and US. Whenever, I've pointed out typos in other people's writing, all but one has been well received, in that case the author told me where to go, which means that I don't read their stuff now.
Angharad
Angharad
I accept the PM as it was intended.
which is to help make the story better to read or to correct something that just doesn't make as much sense as I thought it did when written. I'm far from perfect, and take those kind of messages, make the changes (most of the time) and thank whoever brought it my attention.
The thing is, don't get in a huff over it. That someone cared enough about the story to offer that form of help, and was good enough not to do so in public says that they are genuinely trying to help. So long as it is grammatical in nature and not trying to get you to change the plot or character.
Maggie
It's probably the hard wooden ruler ...
... that was rapped on my knuckles that makes me notice typos and misspellings. (In other people's works, but not in my own!)
And just like PS it detracts from my enjoyment of a story.
There was one instance recently where an entire word was missing - and although short, was a powerful word - 'NOT'. The entire sense of the paragraph was ruined through it.
Now I feel guilty that I didn't say anything.
So I shall start PMing now, entirely with the best of intentions.
I agree with the comment that if the author can't even get the trailer accurate, then I won't bother with the story.
The use of apostrophes when it should be without for a plural is usually compunded by not using one when it should be used. And there are favourite word mix-ups, it seems - or it seams.
The big ones that grate (great) on me are - their, there and they're - heels and heals - bare and bear - oh - the list would go on and I don't wanna get boring (too late, they cried)
"The Cost of Living Does Not Appear To Have Affected Its Popularity"
in most, but not all, instances
Depends on how I perceive
Depends on how I perceive the sender's intent in the PM.
If the tone of the PM seems genuinely helpful, then I'll likely take it as constructive criticism, and consider the person's suggestions. After all, I want to be a better writer, right? Note I said consider, not blindly follow.
On the other hand, if the tone is pedantic (or worse), I generally ignore it -- let's face it, if the sender was a good enough writer to have worthwhile advice, they'd be good enough not to piss me off when they want to offer me the benefit of their wisdom.
Grammarian
Something that seems to happen with some frequency here, and on other sites. The ability to write an entertaining story does not carry with it an equal ability in grammar, spelling, and punctuation. And being a grammarian does not require being a good writer. So it is entirely possible that good advice may not be well-packaged. So side-step the tone and look at the advice. Is it valid? If it is, then use it. If the person sending the PM is confrontational or abusive ignore that part. You don't have to thank them, or acknowledge them in any way. But if someone gives you good advice in a crappy manner you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face if you ignore that advice
Karen J.
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
They're two sides of the same coin...
For many people, including me, too many errors can be annoying, and I suspect most of the people who write are those for whom typographical errors jar the eye. It seems to me that this is common courtesy, akin to telling one that one has a strip of toilet paper trailing from one's shoe. Everyone knows one didn't arrange this on purpose, so there seems no harm in gently pointing this out.
Even if one's informant is an annoying clod, the fact remains that there is toilet paper stuck to one's shoe. Is one supposed to proudly trail the paper as a form of retribution? A manifesto expressing one's utter rejection of bourgeois values and hypocritical class consciousness?
If one writes, one makes typing errors. Our brains are not designed to see them, they're designed to see lions concealed in tall grass, so it's very easy for us to see the right word lurking behind extraneous letters.
Every story requires many eyes, just as early human tribes on the open veldt required many lookouts and sentinels to keep the people safe from danger.
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
I welcome them...
SOMETIMES, grammatical errors are intentional - specially in dialog. But, I for one welcome folks pointing out grammatical and spelling errors. (I then fix them - inline, generally...) My oldest stuff here - is rife with typos/grammatical errors... The newer stuff, I think, is in much better shape.
All of the other authors I've talked with also appreciate having these errors pointed out.
That said, if you're going to point them out it helps if you use a bit of tact. After all, our prose are our babies...
Also, make sure you provide sufficient context that it's easy for us to FIND the "glaring error" in our prose... If you provide a suggestion on fixing it, that's not a bad thing. Just don't be surprised if the author chooses to fix it some other way.
If you're suggesting a "word choice" or phrasing change... Think harder here. Sometimes they're welcome. But, many times they reflect your preference rather than a real RULE that the author is violating.
Also, be cognizant that some grammar rules and word spellings are different - in different countries...
Anne
Send them, Please!
You do not appreciate how grateful I am to people who save me from myself by doing so. As the victim of a public school education, I am handicapped by a common affliction known as crappy spelling syndrome, or CSS. Though I do my best to overcome this, I often fail, something many people here who are blessed with the good spelling gene are always eager to point out. I for one would much rather be told in a PM that I couldn't spell to save my life than to see comments attached to my story informing me I am a #$*@ idiot, miscreant and moron. While some of that may be true, I'd much rather see that view expressed in a PM.
So please, when me fingers go astray, please send me a PM. You will be doing me a great service.
Nancy Cole
CSS sufferer for 53 years
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
Forn parts
And there is an excellent example of foreign use of a common phrase. Nacny sees public schools as rubbish, whereas a Brit sees them as superior (allegedly). Same words, completely opposite meaning. Like momentarily. Or homely. Or plaid....that one is amusing. The pattern is called 'tartan'. A 'plaid' is a piece of cloth, originally, as in the belted plaid, blanket sized. You sat (naked) on it, and wrapped it around yourself to secure it with a belt, the bottom half forming the kilt, the upper an all-purpose 'oh gods it's freezing, is this the best we can do?' upper garment.
Always thought
I always thought the whole "public school" thing was British humour. Call it "public" because it isn't. In the U.S. a public school is, well . . . public! In the U.K. a "public" school is private! Go figure! And you people drive on the wrong side of the road also! Sheesh! :)
Karen J.
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
yep
While we 'ere lot inherited a great many traditions and institutions form the Brits that one always struck me as odd. Presumably some bod in education back when thought so too as a public school here is... public and the posh schools are private. Um, does that make sense?
Kristina
Yes, it does make sense
Way back when, there was NO general education.
The 'toffs' educated their children by employing tutors who were paid and who 'lived in'. Thus the family had an educator at home.
Some families then got together, and rather than each one having a tutor or two, they provided education in a 'central' location and the children of the families then travelled to what became the school-house, and the tutors did their jobs there - this reduced the financial load on all the participating families, who then funded the requirements of the 'central' school. And then the tutors decided they could make more money by expanding the educational facilities to include other 'better off' families - in effect opening the school to the public, well the paying public anyway. So there became 2 forms of education - private (in homes) or public (in the schoolhouse). Thus the public schools became the best education available. Then many many years later, along came state education - state funded that is, open to everyone.
"The Cost of Living Does Not Appear To Have Affected Its Popularity"
in most, but not all, instances
It Does To Me,
[email protected] But I'm on the opposite end of the globe!(giggle)
Love And Hugs,
Jonelle
[email protected]
ack, just noticed
....FORM the Brits...sigh...Grammar police please..typo police? Whatever.
Kris
FORM the Brits
spotted it yourself...
sorted! :-)
P
Public school
The British public schools are called that because they are open to the public; not limited to students of a certain religion, class, family or ethnicity.
American public schools are all that plus they are publicly funded. American private schools are not exactly equivalent to British public schools since it is permissible to limit scholarship by religion in the US if no public funds are being used. Americans would not know what class was in the British sense, our nearest equivalent is race and limiting enrollments based on race is allowed only for tribal schools for one of the recognized Indian, Eskimo, Aleut or Hawaiian tribes who have treaties with the US. Ethnicity in the sense of national origin is not usually used these days to restrict enrollments on either side of the Atlantic, far as I know.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I don't have a good track record with this
I get into a lot of trouble when I comment on this sort of thing and end up usually with a pedal buffet. Pointing out spelling errors is futile. Anyone not using a spell checker these days or checking Wiki for the words that the spell checker marks as false positive, is beyond help. If something is spelt wrong, that's their problem.
Pointing out homophones is the proofreader's job. After posting, I suppose, if there are a lot of them.
Then there are submissions that are just poorly written. For me, then, there must be some strong reason to keep going. That might be good character or good story line. I have come across stories where I found both so compelling that I corrected the mistakes to that I could more fully enjoy the story, keeping the edited version for my own use.
Some fewer I thought were real gems that just needed a bit more polish. Those I privately sent to the author. Usually, that's as far as it goes.
Face it, most authors are in to their next story and usually don't want to back up. There is the rare occasion when there will be improvement in the next story or chapter. Usually, it's business as usual.
And to be quite honest, there are some authors whose storytelling ability is so good that I will greedily sop up anything they write, regardless of how raw it might be.
It would be easier for clods like me if authors actually indicated the sort of feedback that is welcomed. And I mean something more than, 'let me know how you liked it' sort of thing. I see that as rather self-serving and I am more likely comment that it 'blows chunks', and find myself rightly sanctioned by the nice folks running this store for being an insensitive idiot.
So I usually limit myself to privately messaging those few whom I've worked with previously.
I suspect it's better this way.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Wurld's wurst grammer
Or so I have been told. Thus I use the second worst grammer checker of all time, that which comes with M$crosoft Office. Sorry.
MS Office Grammar checker
I haven't used it recently so it is just possible that it might have improved. I suspect not.
When my company first invested in MS Office it came with all that garbage switched on by default, which of course means 'correct as you type', spell-checking and grammar-checking with wavy underlines (WTF? What do those mean? How do I get rid of them? Why does it do that?).
The grammar checker was so eccentric to our way of thinking that we all, without exception, turned it off. I have no idea which set of rules it followed, but it certainly wasn't for any form of English we spoke in the office.
In other words, if you use it at all, treat it like you would a Sat-Nav. Treat it with healthy suspicion.
Penny
A useful tool
I have MS Spell & Grammar checker permanently turned on. Sure, it's far from perfect but it's really useful for highlighting those typos that even the best of us make occasionally. (The wavy lines highlight potential mistakes. You get rid of them either by correcting the mistake or telling it to ignore the problem - I thought that was all pretty obvious!)
You can customise the grammar checker for the style of writing you use to minimise false reporting. Of course, it's your slave rather than your master, and slaves can be very stupid. Doesn't stop them being useful though!
Checker
I have mine turned on, as it helps to detect when my dodgy 'I' key has slipped ('Extra space between words'). However, a lot of the time it is not just off-kilter, but completely wrong. No problem; I just tell it to ignore further examples of my scintillating prose.
D you not want to know?
The original question is phrased in such a way as to indicate you don't want to know about grammatical errors in your stories.
Why not?
If it's in a PM, it's not as if it's a public exposure of the reported mistake. If you disagree over the "error", you don't have to make the change. And surely, you want your story to look as good as possible?
I take a pride in writing good English, I use a spell and grammar checker (but do not religiously follow its advice) and still make occasional mistakes. If someone is kind enough to PM me about it, I am usually a) embarrassed that I let it through, and b) grateful that I can correct it.
The only "errors" to which I am less than receptive are those when someone doesn't realise there's a difference between US and UK English - and those people are usually brash enough to put it in a public comment!
Please please please please....
tell me what is wrong. If no one does, then I'll never know and not get better as a writer. If there is a glaring mistake, just drop it into the comments, otherwise please PM me.
I Used to Point Out Nearly All...
...the ones I saw. (Hey, I'm an editor.) Still can't understand why someone would want to leave obvious inadvertent errors in their stories when they can correct them, seemingly just because someone else spotted them.
Now I usually complain only if it affects/confuses the meaning, or if it's a misuse (discrete/discreet, cubicle/cubical, illusive/elusive, etc.) that's liable to carry over indefinitely if the person isn't made aware of it. Occasionally -- certainly not always -- if I'm writing about something I consider important, I'll mention other smaller problems.
Some people appreciate it; some can't stand me. Some don't believe me, which is really annoying.
I did learn that I should say something, preferably something nice, about the story at the same time. I think a few people used to get the impression that I was reading their stories only to see how many typos I could find. (Not true, FWIW. I've quit stories that were too hard to wade through.)
Eric
(Two m's in "grammatical", BTW.)[g]
I've been keeping my trap shut
and have not PM'd the author though there are authors here whose spelling problems are above the average and even after being proofed, for that I blame the proofreader/editor. I proofed/light edited one of the authors here and it takes three to four iterations for my incompetent brain to pick up all the grammatical and spelling issues and the odd phrasing and punctuation of content issues and suggest corrections to them. I do not blame the odd problems for those writers that do not have real editing support, it can be very time consuming, especially for large works to go through. It is not unusual to spend, on a large segment, two or three hours to vet a chapter to my satisfaction. That said, for the odd story I really like, I would create a self-edited copy only for my own use. I've been tempted at times to present the completed, edited piece to the original author but always considered that to be presumptive of me to do so.
All in all, it is enjoyable to do so as it gave me more perspective on how seemingly small changes in sentence structure and of course spelling can adjust a story's feel and flavor.
My suggestion to an author is if they are open to getting corrections then they explicitly state that suggested changes are welcome. I personally prefer sending the entire piece in, modified the way I would like on the odd chance it saves the author time in going through the tedium of given an explanation for a suggested change.
Kim