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Thought this might be interesting to people; crossposted from the Not Exactly Rocket Science blog:
BigCloset TopShelf
TopShelf TG Fiction in the BigCloset!
The Hatbox
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Comments
It is interesting...
I've not yet noticed that I've lost my brain... So far, my colleagues appear to be assuming I can still think, and my first customer is listening. We'll see if this continues. I HAVE heard stories and talked to other professionals who've told me that post transition, many of their male colleagues started treating them like any other woman (interrupt them, talk over them, ignore their opinion, etc.)...
His observations about how women are treated in Science are spot on though... I hear it all the time from my wife - how she was put down left and right. Then, my daughter - who was advised to not apply to some schools and avoid the sciences (graduating Suma Cum Laude in Cell Biology & Neuroscience)... Luckily she had good female role models (in sciences). And, we see it happening to our younger daughter now.
*sighs*
Annette
Well, I guess there are
Well, I guess there are reasons for such behavior. Considering that most science guys were geeks when they grew up... and everyone knows how much geeks are liked by most women this rather condescending behavior may very well be a developed defense reflex against female scorn or disdain. If you don't get respect for treating women with repsect why bother at all?
It tends to hit the wrong persons of course, but then thus is human behavior. We're all no saints and mostly patient assertion will work way better than moral outrage. I know from myself how hard it is to get over predjudices. I mean if you only experienced girls/women who painted their nails in science class it's rather hard to take other women in science serious.
It's a rather human behavior and should be treated as such. Moral outrage about it won't help much, because it'll only allienate the guys, I think. It's probably the best to trest peope as one wants to be treated oneself and give the most annoying idiots a kick to their knee or something.
sigh too :D
Beyogi
I should point out...
I should point out that while it's very prevalent in Science... The same kind of thing exists in other areas of our society. I know a Lawyer who transitioned. Post transition, she's found that her ability to be listened to in partner meetings, etc. is not what it once was. Colleagues who would never have interrupted her before transition do it regularly now.
As to the "geek" effect... Sorry, that doesn't work for me. The damage has been done BEFORE you get that far. Efforts to suppress females in the sciences (whether conscious or not) start in the Elementary Schools... My younger daughter LOVED math (because it "made sense" through sixth grade. Her seventh grade teacher destroyed it for her (and most of the girls in the class)... It was hard work getting her re-engaged in eighth grade, and only last year did she start to think that maybe she could do some math after all, but she still said (despite doing well in the class) "I suck at math".
Why do you think girls might have painted nails in science class? Probably because nobody bothered to make science real and interesting for them.
Oh - and I should point out that the discouragement of females entering the "hard sciences" is not just from male teachers. It's as common from the female teachers (which a majority of elementary teachers are). Some of our daughter's teachers didn't like science and/or didn't really understand and they passed this on to the girls. The better ones recognized their weaknesses and accepted help when offered. Others pushed the help away. (My wife, every year, offered to come in and do a "science is fun" demonstration for the classes. VERY FEW teachers took her up on this. When they did, the kids ALL loved it. (Liquid Nitrogen is an awesome tool for impressing kids... And, what young kid doesn't like making their very own blob of GOOZE?)
Annette
I don't know lawyers, so I
I don't know lawyers, so I don't really have an opinion about those. Well except that only assholes become lawyers, but I doubt you wanted to know that. Maybe the different hormones cause her to prattle more? I'm not sure, but women tend to pride themselves in their extensive communication skills, so she might just talk WAY more than before.
I don't know about your teachers, but my first science teachers told the guys we were stupid for havin a penis. Thank you very much. My chemistry teacher was an equal opportunity asshole, but he actually tried to teach everyone as much as he could. I could rather understand his rant about the noxiousness of nail polish if some bimbos had the audacy to actually use it during class.
Nobody bothered to make languages interesting for me either. It was learning vocabulary and gramar and doing stupid tests. Or even worse german literature where having a vagina magically raised your grade level by one point.
I mean there has to be a reason that languages in university are a female domain. Nobody ever bothered to offer the guys help there. The only reason I actually really learned english was that my faher took the time to watch english shows and learning programms on the TV. If it was just what I learned at school, I'd probably never found this site.
Everyone can have asshole teachers. I guess I feel sorry for your daughter, but shit happens. I had a music teacher who just liked to belittle everyone. An english teacher who was busyer with mourning his later wife then teaching and a economic teacher who felt it was a good idea to spend the first 2 years of her course learning definitions. Those were the crasser cases.
I'm pretty sure everyone has their little injustices commited at school. A two years younger friend of mine never learned english properly thanks to sucky teachers. My sister never had the problems you described (except maybe that her chemistry teacher was boring as hell, but the boys in her class were equally effected - they had a pokemon course among themselves...)
I guess I can somewhat understand where you're coming from, but after years of blatant favoritism towards girls in about every subject (in germany girls get 10% better grades for the same work as boys - that's fact not fiction) I kind of lack sympathy for their plight. The rule for guys is "nobody will ever help you" after all. Considering that girls and women have massive help, girls days, female only projects, etc. for sciences it's no wonder many guys lack respect.
Nowadays women don't even need to meet the same standarts as men anymore: http://translate.google.com/translate?client=firefox-a&hl=en...
I think the more women cry how much they're discrimminated against the less respect they get. As a guy you may not have gotten the discouragement, but I certainly didn't get any encouragement. Actually nobody bloody cared except for my family
Beyogi
Perhaps...
Perhaps things are different on your side of the ocean (or in Germany, as you indicate). I didn't say, but I was referring to the USA in general - and a large chunk of it where I have experience.
I only provided the "Lawyer" point as one example outside Scientific circles. I could have used the US Military, US Businesses, Accountants, and the list goes on. The experience of women vs. men is not identical (here) in any of those areas, but it IS common for a woman to have to demonstrate SUPERIOR skills/competencies in order to be judged "equal". I'm also speaking in "generalities". There ARE exceptions. My wife, after all IS a Scientist. But, based on your description above, things really ARE different over there.
We should stop arguing - what may well be a cultural difference in our countries or may just be different observations.
Annette
Sorry, it's a bit of a red
Sorry, it's a bit of a red rag to me. You'll see employment adds that offer preference of women with the same qualification aka men don't need to apply. There has been a discussion about a womens quota for executive posts which neither helps those women and men who earn less than minimum wage.
I can't say how it is for the older generations, but there is equal rights in germany since at least 30 years, and since 20 years ago it's mostly female priviledge. The result of this is that many women either work in marginal jobs or in jobs where they are underqualified.
50 years ago we had the problem that women were disadvantaged in education, sciences and economy. Nowadays there is a 6:4 quota of girls to boys who get the highest school graduation level (there are different oones in germany) and the same goes for university entrances, while guys dominate the bottom of society. At the same time we have female education ministers who praise this fact as a good thing. It's ridicoulous, 50 years ago it was ok to discrimminate against girls and nowadays it is ok to discrimminate against boys.
I guess I just saw the situation from my cultural background and thought they were joking. Of course people don't expect much from women if they actually need to do less to get the same honors.
I'm sorry if I reacted a bit strongly, but I think you got an idea why. You're right, arguing is stupid ;)
Beyogi
Insights from a transsexual scientest
A shame that women are not treated as men's equels
May Your Light Forever Shine
MtF and FtM are not similar.
They are not similar to us in any respect, and this is from my own observation not from some titled fool who isn't even T in any respect. Just my opionion.
More than once I have observed that FtM complained about being forced in to the "Suzie roll". Also I have heard them openly express the fact that they "want some power around here". I do not know if any of this stems from having bad role models when growing up.
OTOH
I know that some of my Tness came from being raised by a male role model that was so bad that I remember to this day swearing that I would never be like him. Then there was my unavoidable feminine nature growing up, and for me, I finally got sick of putting up with all the crap and walked away, though at the time I had no idea that I was walking away from pretending to be male.
Just saying.
G