And please as you read this, remember that this is just my opinion, that i don't assume to speak for anyone else and yes it was fiction i just read. on to the rant:
I just read a story series that was well plotted, well thought, a good read and... it made me fracking angry. Not at the author, not at the ideas presented, but at the concept of behaviour modification and ego death. The idea of 'We don't like how you think, so we will change the way you think'.
The concept knots up my guts, because the mind, the ego, whatever makes the person who he/she is becomes disposable. it is murder, even if the body lives on. i see this concept far too often in fiction in general and i have a (perhaps too) vivid imagination and can see groups willing doing this to people who don't think 'correctly'.
I lay this at no one authors feet, indeed, when i was younger, this type of fiction was a bit thrilling to me. perhaps i have read about too much real world evil, with that evil defended staunchly by one side or another for this kind of... erasure of person to be thrilling. ok, take your protagonist, feminize him, masculinize her. but don't kill their minds... if reason cannot change a persons mind then they are lost... don't kill a person but keep their body alive, walking and smiling.
our minds are who we are... most of us are messed up already... please for me anyways, no mind murders...
Ok, end rant... i had to say those things because for the majority of my life, i suppressed my own mind... like static on a radio, my own thoughts were buried... by the worst villain possible... me... out of fear mostly. but you see my terror stems from the fact that if i can do it to me, than an outside force could too...
now i need a good cry and ice cream...
Diana
Comments
As an opinion, it's fine
I'm glad you expressed it in a blog, because if you had attached this rant (your word) to someone's story, I would have unpubbed it for violation of TOS. It's not that you can't express such opinions, it's that you can't attach unfriendly opinions to someone else's work here at BC.
But think of this, if you are advocating that authors should not write fiction on certain themes because those themes offend you, then it is not the author whose story you object to who is attempting mind control. And you must be objecting to the writing of these stories since you plead for no mind murders. It's fiction, and fiction needs just as wide a horizon as opinion does. That's one of the main functions of fiction, showing us new horizons.
Even frightening ones.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Oh Erin...
I would never could never tell someone what to write or not... censorship is one of the other things that makes me feel ooogy. writing ...well any expression can be either you cup of tea or not. i cannot and will not censor others which is why i made this blog entry... not to chastise, but to express feelings that had to come out or fester inside me untill i blew up at someone... i'm hoping this way is healthier... i'm still learning to express my feelings rather than hold them in...
i still bottle up far too much of my self...
Diana
Okay
But read over what you wrote. What you seem to be saying, and I really can't read it any other way, is don't write this stuff. If you just meant that it disturbs you and you don't want to read it, you shouldn't put so much of what you say in the imperative.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
the imperitive is mostly because i suck at grammer
i honestly do... and i should have waited a half hour at least... re read it and then posted...
i am impulsive i guess... but i honestly don't ever want anyone to stop writing.
Diana
I have a lot in common with you, hon
What makes it worse for me is that there was a time when I eagerly enjoyed these types of stories, until my own abuse came back to my conscious mind, and suddenly I saw how horrible those situations would be in real life. That's one reason why I've done stuff like "yes, dear" as sort of an apology for liking those types of stories.
Dorothycolleen
in our back and forth Dorothy,
i sort of felt we had kindred spirits... our backgrounds are different, but we are similar in many ways...
thank you for putting up with my rants
Diana
something else to consider.
Mind control, in its extreme form, may be ethically reprehensible; however, it's morally advocated.
That is, if you look at it logically, it's a horrible thing to do to someone - it's forcing them to change their mind, or adapt to a specific line of thought.
The reason I made the distinction is that 'morals' are guilt complexes established by societies or religions in order to drive (or dictate) a specific mode of conduct. That said, I can't think of a religion that doesn't preach a way to think, or a way to act. Societies in general do the same thing - it's simply that it's generally not done with drugs, cattle prods, and deprivation therapy. Instead, it's done through normal indoctrination while growing up.
Is it bad? Good? I don't think we can use those terms. It simply is - the good or bad is a label depending upon your point of view in that society or organization.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
this is also true Bibliophage
probably why i avoid organized anything in general. I've seem my eldest sister change from being a reasonably intelligent person to a very right wing religious wingnut... one example, but i have seen it.
Diana
You can't avoid it. Not
You can't avoid it. Not really
We've all experienced it from the day of our birth. It's all part of socialization, and is required for any group over _one_.
Now, mind you, one thing that is the case, at least in the US, is that you don't _have_ to submit to much of the 'mind control'. You have to be willing to let it occur, which would be the case of your sister. Something in her liked what she was hearing, so she willingly stayed to let it happen.
Of course, you could always try an intervention.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
And then there are those of us...
Who are perfectly capable of listening and gleaning from it what is really true and discarding the silly notions of the speaker.
Or at least what's true for us. We are certain to have silly notions of our own, which might explain why other peoples silly notions can't get through.
Abigail Drew.
Abigail Drew.
Hi Moongoddess.
I don't think I've commented to you before.
I must confess, in my earlier writings (Mostly on Fictionmania.)I dwelt extensively upon all sorts of scenarios especially 'enforced changes'. I won't apologise for them but when I look back at them I'm sometimes slightly embarrassed by what I wrote. I sometimes think I was subconsciously trying to alter my own internalites by proxy until I finally concluded, sometime around 2005 that I am what's between my ears and no amount of 'enforced alteration' can ever change that.
That realisation of being what I am has helped me 'come out' and consequently politicised my gender issues though I keep that politicisation somewhat apart from my stories.
Now I have other mountains to climb for after realising I'm an 'inbetweenie' it has only served to complicate my relationships an confuse me in another way. I cannot quantify or qualify or 'pidegonhole' my gender and that serves only to create other problems; fortunately they are far less troublesome problems and I have to some extent made my life easier to bear.
My basic philosophy is, we are what's between our ears, not what's between our legs. It works for me.
XZXX
Bev.
though i never wrote when i was younger Bev,
this type was a guilty pleasure for me as well. i hadn't figured out who i was but these stories were a source of wish fulfillment...oh someone else is responsible for my dilemma.
older now, maybe wiser, not sure about that though... just know that the me i am is just inside this meatsuit... a vehicle of sorts. some of the meds i have been given in the past messed with me... they're not my meds any more.
ok rambling now, but Bev, thanks for taking the time to comment... i do appreciate it.
Diana
Drawing fire for this...
I think we're all too mature for that. You're just sharing your opinion. We all get that. I've stated several times that the nasty femdom/forced fem stories are one of my least favorite, in general (although I read them more when I was younger). I get that it's a fantasy for some, but they tend to just make me angry, although I don't mind as much if they end with the "victim" turning the tables on the guilty parties...
I agree with you, stories with personality murder and mind reprogramming make me squeamish too. Although I've seen it done well, including in mainstream fiction (Jack L. Chalker's The Identity Matrix comes to mind, which also had body swapping and TG elements, as many of his stories did). Like the forced fem stories, I don't mind it as much if it shows the victim fighting back, overcoming the enemy that did it to her/him, maybe even having the option to change back to themselves (even if they then choose to stay as they are, or keep bits of both lives).
But as a general concept, it's something we should be wary of, even in real life as our science and technology advance and we figure out how the brain works and how to modify its function. Many people or organizations WILL want to use it, including on non-consenting victims, even if they tell themselves they're doing it for the best intentions, and use their ideology/politics/religious beliefs to justify it. The faction that gets in power will want to use it on anyone who disagrees. Can you imagine, say, the religious rightwing of the US wanting to turn everyone into devout Fox News viewers who believe all the propaganda? (now maybe I'll take some fire for saying that... *grin*)
And of course, Bibliophage had some excellent points. There are different kinds of mind control, brainwashing, programming and indoctrination. Including all the stuff (crap included) that we all grow up with. Including the junk that makes most of us deny our inner selves for so long in the first place...
I don't have any answers. Just throwing in my two cents.
Lisa "You Will Be Assimilated" Danielle
Hi Diana. I agree with your
Hi Diana. I agree with your sentiment. That's why I hated the therapist's question about being able to take a blue pill or a pink pill and be "normal" in whatever gender represented by the colors. It would take away all the angst from growing up different no matter which you chose, and leave only memories of always being the gender you selected. It is a bit different in that the choice of which pill would be the individuals, but there would be the same general sort of social pressure to take one or the other in order to conform, though maybe milder, to be "normal" whatever that may be. She of course was using it as a part of a diagnostic thing, and was kinda surprised when I told her I would not choose that kind of ego death.
There have been a lot of scifi stories about being forced to conform, from Orwells "1984" and including several stories from the old Twilight Zone series, presented in different ways. Then there were the Russian Gulags and involuntary commitment to asylums because one must be insane if they wanted to maintain individuality, but mostly it was political bullcrap, of course.
Involuntary committment even was practiced in the 1950's at least here in the US by families who were fearful for their reputations and had offspring that wanted to change gender and wanted surgery. Electro therapy and pills were used to try to "cure" them. So it wasn't even that long ago, ya' know, at least for old folks like me.
So, you are not alone my dear.
CaroL
CaroL
CaroL
Guantanamo Prison
From what I read, I think that some of the torture "survivors" housed at Guantanamo had their egos erased/killed. I don't know specifics, so maybe that's not the case. If it is true, I consider it a great crime against humanity. It seems worse to me than a simple execution, but that might be because of the horror the crime inspires. Just thinking about it, years of torture followed by execution might be a moral equivalent.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Ready for work, 1992.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Torture, Interrogation, Hostage taking, etc
Yes, in a way, that's what interrogators do. In trying to "break" someone to learn what they know, they may want to erase or destroy certain ideological beliefs, or at least discredit them in the minds of the people being interrogated, through force, torture, etc. And that's a primitive form of what we're talking about too. And certain US forces aren't the only ones who did this. Muslim extremists and other terrorists do it also. Some of their long-term hostages end up converting to Islam and other things they were influenced into believing.
And it's not new, either. I've heard about it in the Vietnam war, etc. I'm sure it was done thousands of years ago. Perhaps far more, because we didn't have world-wide communications and international treaties and Geneva Conventions and stuff. Even Stockholm Syndrome is related, although a more passive and indirect method. Forcing someone to stay with/around you until they become sympathetic toward you and your views.
As for using mind control and brain reprogramming and death of personality in fiction, I guess it depends on how the author uses it, what their intentions are. Is it done just for fantasy fulfillment, like, "oh look, we feminized and brainwashed this dude to be our sex slave, let's have fun!"? Or is it done to set up the people doing it as reprehensible villains (even if they justify it in their own heads and even consider themselves the righteous ones)? Is it used as social commentary, a warning to be vigilant against such things in real life?
Something to think about... if "they" let you.
Lisa
Counterforce Stories
The best thing about the mind-control/identity-death tg stories is the slew of (usually quite angry) stories that have been written in response to them in the past few years. Whether they're simply about how the victim manages to outsmart the baddies and survive with his/her self intact; or how the perpetrators are arrested and brought to justice, or even are gleefully slaughtered by a victim pushed too far in a clear case of karma-is-a-bitch, they address this sort of evil in a completely different way than those that portray being brainwashed or turned into a passive big-titted moron as something erotic. I hate censorship and wouldn't deny anyone the right to read about their favorite fantasies, but a good rebuttal-story that expresses outrage at this very real crime (I hope someday these brainwashing "reparative therapy" creeps will stand trial for crimes against humanity) can be a thing of beauty.
~~hugs Veronica
Well shit, I guess it really CAN happen here..,
.
I can so understand your
I can so understand your problems with this particular genre. It takes away the point of a story with mudering the protagonist. I like bad boy to good girl, because the character learns his/her flaws and becomes a better person. I know it is bullshit, but I like it anyway. Identity death takes the whole process away and replaces a person with a creature. They'd be better off dead imho.
The only story were this trope has been used really well is D.O.A. by Scott Ramsey.
Beyogi
Terms of the debate
I'm not picking on you moon goddess in particular, you're just the one who started the thread here.
Nearly all the arguments I've heard about why stories using this theme are not good assume a moral superiority over the writer.
This is what annoys the ever-loving FUCK out of me whenever this topic comes up.
Get off it. It's FICTION! The morality of the characters has nothing to do with the morality of the writer or the reader.
Calling it "Identity Death" is begging the question by using a term defined in morality.
And not a single person who professes to dislike this sort of story expresses the least comprehension of why someone might like it, or might want to write it. If they admit to having liked such stories in the past, they profess bewilderment as to why they could have been so stupid and morally lax. Indeed, the writing, reading or enjoyment of such stories is shamed repeatedly. I don't see any effort made at understanding, only at tearing down.
This really pisses me off. And arguments about "identity death" have more than once led me to wonder if it is even possible to offer a fiction website where someone will not attack a writer on moral terms.
Here's the deal: These stories keep getting written and keep getting read. Why?
Don't keep harping on how much you dislike stories because they disturb you. Stories aren't supposed to disturb you? Who told you that?
Why do some people write such stories and why do they find an audience? What's the appeal?
I don't usuallyread these sort of stories, mostly they don't appeal to me. I've written a few just to see if I could. There are tales that can't be told without this sort of theme. And I've seen people who dislike this theme yank the barest hint of it out of nowhere and castigate an author for being an immoral, human-hating scum of a hack-writer for using it. When they didn't that I could see. One writer I know did not post here for two years after such an attack.
Think about it.
Hugs to all,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Oh I do understand Erin, and this wasn't intended as an
attack on any author. and yes i did start this thread and your opinion is welcome. you will note however in my original post i wrote
"And please as you read this, remember that this is just my opinion, that i don't assume to speak for anyone else and yes it was fiction i just read"
That being said, it was only my personal opinion. i should self censor, i guess, but then i might miss something spectacular on the site... i am trying to read as much of the body of work on the site as i can. and if i shied away every time i read the first few paragraphs, i might miss that experience, or avoid other work by the same author...
Maybe i should just keep my big mouth shut and take all of this for what it is...
i don't know
Diana
I'm not fond of the concept,
I'm not fond of the concept, but a lot of very good stories have been written with it. I'd guess that people that use it are either using it as a sort of submissive wish fulfillment, mental self flagellation, vicious revenge fantasy, or as what it should be, simply a strong plot complication device.
Personally, I think debates like _this_ one are better to have. If an author can go into a story knowing how the audience can react, then it's easier to tune the story to provoke the _right_ reactions.
I've known of people writing stories just to piss other people off - considering the bad writing of some of this genre, it's probably a popular target of such :)
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.