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Okay, no, I'm not asking the question. Didn't mean to use a flaming headline to attract your attention, either. Sorry. I just wanted to repost something I wrote in response to Dorothy Colleen's now-deleted blog posting.
Sex, Gender, Sexuality, etc., is something we all know something about, but we tend to look at it with a very subjective vision. Everybody (in the world, not just here) is affected by the subject, one way or another, or many ways. As such, it's a bit silly just to look at crossdressers in isolation, or transsexuals in isolation, or even all TG people (using TG as an umbrella term to cover all of this particular community's errr... distinguishing characteristics) in isolation.
Like many other crossdressers, when I started thinking analytically about it I realized I only knew two things. One, I didn't feel any desire to change genders. And two, presenting as the opposite gender fulfills some need I have. Beyond that, nothing. Not a clue. So, I read, and I chatted, and I spent some of my therapy time bouncing questions and ideas off my therapist. First new thing I learned: your average therapist doesn't know that much about this, either!
Dr. Lori Kohler, MD is involved heavily with treating transgendered and sexual-fringe individuals in San Francisco and lectures to health care professionals on the troubles and risks they face, especially with regards to HIV. Her main goal in these lectures seems to be to educate the professionals on the scope and variability of the non-vanilla community.
But, I digress.
Here's what I wrote in response to Dorothy Colleen's effort to lend some perspective to the varying scope of crossdressers:
==============================
Your Perception is yours, and you're certainly entitled to it, but [and here I rambled a bit, but have decided to redact that part] it seems to me you're making certain assumptions, and a lot of extrapolations. It also seems to me that you're making use of a common fallacy, that gender presentation (or "aesthetic") is related to gender identity. In fact, some eminent therapists who counsel patients and lecture on the subject to other therapists see them as two separate axes in a multi-axis model of human sexuality and gender.
A small group of us (four, to be exact) held a discussion in a chatroom on one such presentation, and digested our understanding into this:
Seven Scales of Sex and Sexuality
=================================The following chart was found in a powerpoint presentation for clinicians on the
subject of treating transgendered individuals. The discussion excluded intersexed
conditions, so these scales may not be inclusive enough to cover all individuals.The full presentation is at http://www.ucsf.edu/paetc/resources/lori.ppt
I am posting this here in response to some recent discussions on crossdressing and
transgenderism, which attempted to draw conclusions with much less information, and
perhaps without enough consideration of the complicated nature of sex and sexuality.Using seven scales for categorization will obviously provide much more flexibility
than merely one or two, as is often done in these circles, but it is likely not
absolutely perfect as a system, either, nor is it presented as such.The Scales and Their Ranges:
----------------------------
Gender(1): female<-->male
Sexual Orientation(2): "gay/lesbian<-->straight"
or, perhaps preferably, attraction to: female partners<-->male partners
Gender Identity: male<-->female
Sexual Identity: dominant<-->submissive
Aesthetic: feminine<-->masculine
Social Conduct: butch<-->femme
Sexual Activity: monogamous<-->unbridledPresumed definitions:
Gender -- Physical birth gender. Male or Female as usually determined. Intersexed
individuals excluded. (1)Sexual Orientation -- see note (2).
Gender Identity -- Internal gender identity, which in transgendered individuals can
be opposite their birth gender, or anywhere in the range.Sexual Identity -- Initially confusing, this is quite distinct from gender identity.
It concerns roles taken in sexual activity, "Top" or "Bottom."
This might be most relevant to same-sex couples and those who
prefer activities sometimes called s&m, leather, or kink. Others
will likely find themselves somewhere in the middle.Aesthetic -- This is physical appearance and presentation. It includes grooming,
styling, choice of clothing, cosmetics and, in some cases, cosmetic surgery.
In the case of Crossdressers/Transvestites, this may have various part-
time manifestations, it being necessary to match their physical gender
most of the time for employment or social reasons.Social Conduct -- Public role and behavior. While often in sync with Aesthetic, it
doesn't have to be. Witness some gay males who look masculine but
act feminine, and some women who look feminine but act masculine
("tomboys").Sexual Activity -- Describes the individual's need for one or more partners. To be
more complete, it should perhaps extend the range to those who
eschew partners entirely.Chart Notes:
(1) Following a discussion on #tg_fiction_general_chat, some of us decided that Gender
is intended to be physical birth gender and is not a sliding scale, especially when
the intersexed are excluded. If the Gender scale could be further expanded to cover the
intersexed, it would likely have to be split to show additional scales with results
of genetic sex testing and degree of mutation of hormone receptors, in addition to
primary sexual characteristics.(2) Sexual Orientation was also deemed to be problematic, especially in cases where Gender
and Gender Identity were opposite. As such, we'd like to change the scale from
gay(lesbian)/straight to that of attraction to male/female, which is a bit clearer,
although not perfectly descriptive (especially if attracted to intersexed or other
transgendered individuals.)Conclusion
----------
In conclusion, while not perfect, the idea of expanding sexual descriptions of individuals
to seven scales, six of which can be any point on a continuum, would seem to offer a better
basis for future discussions than simply trying to put people on a single male-female
scale of gender.As for how to use these scales, or even if to use them, is a matter best left to clinicians.
For the purpose of chatroom discussions, though, it might give us more to talk about,
which is my only hope in posted them here.2 July 2005
Notes and posting by Pippa. Discussion participants: Jenny, Itinerant, and H.E.R.
In order to broaden the discussion, I'd like you to consider the implications of this. It provides a system that can be used to classify all* persons in terms of gender and sexuality, not just the TG. This includes trans and cis, sissies and tomboys, twinks and bears, femmes and butches, monogamists and sluts, slaves and masters, gay and straight. Every single individual you know* can be described using these seven scales.
Drag Queens, female impersonators and Drag Kings engaged in public performance, whether professionally or just for entertainment, also get excluded from these models, on the grounds that it's theater/acting/professional, not personal. Outside of their public performances, however, the same system applies.
Another point I'd like to make is that people go through various changes of intensity over time. This especially applies to Aesthetic, which is perhaps the most fluid of the characteristics. In the world of women's fashion (read a few magazines and you'll see what I mean), much emphasis is put on mood, feelings, and expression. One's presentation is a conscious effort based on that, and as one's mood changes, so can how you present yourself, not only over longer periods like seasons, but within hours.
_______
* except, as noted, intersex, who by nature of their ambiguous physical attributes, break the model's axis of birth gender, and also get excluded from diagnoses of transgender.
Comments
thanks for sharing with everybody
this info i found useful, and i hope it helps others.
How do we know that's really even them performing?
And not a Drag King or Queen being who they might need to be.
I also happen to think, while this is controversial, what affects the Sexual Orientation gene usually also effects the Gender Identity gene. I just believe the two tend to be linked.
I'll elaborate what I mean more as I'm tired.
We don't ...
... but that makes no difference to any other performance. We don't know either if an actor plays mostly "bad guys" because he dreams of being one or because he gets paid to do it ...
--- Martin
Even more complex!
It's far too easy (and a human fallibility) to simplify complex concepts into a linear scale, or (even worse, but favoured by the media) black/white (e.g. anyone reported as committing a serious crime will invariably be described as "evil" and language chosen to make people think they spent 24/7 planning the crime; whereas a teenager run over by a drunk driver will invariably be described as something akin to an angel who was friends with the entire school and wouldn't dream of hurting a fly!)
I think I covered similar points to yours in my response, but it's also worth bearing in mind that individuals may exist at multiple points on many of the scales, and some scales (e.g. aesthetic) may be multidimensional in themselves.
So if it could all be plotted on a multidimensional graph, people would probably exist somewhere within a 'cloud' of data points.
Of course, while it's impossible to plot a graph with 7+ different axises (axes?), it does lend itself to an approximate mental image, which may be helpful in attempting to rationalise the complexity.
Multidimensional graphs can also be used for other areas of life involving complex decisions or concepts - take buying a car:
Price, size, practicality, ergonomics, features, accessories, colour, fuel economy, reliability...
And Price can be expanded into RRP, Manufacturer discounts, dealer discounts, haggling discounts, finance deals, trade-in value of your existing car, how much you could make through selling your car through other channels (e.g. private sale)...
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
Culturally Sensitive
It's perhaps important to remember that mental states are culturally-determined, as people mould themselves to fit the society in which they live.
In Malaysia, there used to be a condition called "running amok," in which the "victim" fell into a murderous rage, killing everyone they came across until killed or subdued. If subdued, the "victim" would fall asleep, and after waking, have no memory of the incident.
In the Thirties, as Western influences permeated Malaysian society, including prestigious Western medical attitudes and therapies, "running amok" began to disappear, and has been replaced by Western-style neuroses and psychoses.
So either mental illness is contagious, or the fact that a psychosis became more acceptable caused "amok" to morph into something with more social prestige.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/electronic-publications/stay-free...
The modern conception of transsexuality is quite similar, and I daresay many who suffer from what we now think of as a "diagnosis" study the manuals to make sure they "get it right," despite the fact that a lot of the original research and theories on the condition were done by a medical doctor who was later discovered to have fabricated almost all of his research out of whole cloth, and whose most famous "success" has been revealed as a fraud.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html
Historically, the surgical options available today were not available, and the various diagnostic criteria and treatments either primitive or non-existent, so people did as they always do, construct their own reality.
There have been societies in which homosexual activities between older and younger men were thought of as ideal exemplars of rugged masculinity, and sex with women a more-or-less unpleasant duty that one performed for the sake of family obligations and creating new citizens for one's city. What we would now think of as "heterosexuality," these cultures thought of as an effeminate weakness, something that might appeal to a "sissy," but certainly not to a virtuous man with normal sexual interests.
All such efforts of categorising eventually fall victim to the fact that people's minds don't fit into little boxes, and will do what they want to do, without regard to the fads of the moment. A hundred years from now, Harry Benjamin, and every other gender and sexuality theorist, will be thought of as quaint relics of a forgotten age, like Wilhelm Reich and his "Orgone Accumulators."
Perhaps that very bad man, Aleister Crowley, had it right:
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
That discussion sheds light on the subject
Thank you, Pippa. That discussion sheds "light" on the subject rather than turning up the "heat". It pretty much is in line with my own thinking, but goes even further, so I find it helpful. The two footnotes also are very worthwhile for pointing out ways in which the system could be changed or expanded to deal even better with the complexity of the real world.
Kris
Kris
{I leave a trail of Kudos as I browse the site. Be careful where you step!}
Oh, this is sooooo Easy
Everyone knows what the difference is between a cross dresser and a transsexual is.
Transsexuals wear comfortable shoes.
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
>> comfortable shoes
Isn't that lesbians?
Lesbian Code by Alix Dobkin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srcJLMAmGQ
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
*snort*
Maybe it's transsexuals don't wear any clothes.
Oh the humanity! ;-)
Kim
Isn't the difference
cross dressers are nasty little w*nkers and transsexuals have a medical condition?
It's like so many of these things very subjective, cultural and largely irrelevant.
Why do we look for causes of a non-disease, it's a lifestyle choice which causes illness or depression when the person concerned is frustrated in not being able to make the choice - be that cross-dressing, or making more permanent arrangements. Or do some prefer to talk about being compelled to do such things, thus abdicating responsibility to a medical condition, which is self diagnosed!
In my case, it wasn't the surgeon who 'cured' my transsexualism, but the legal system which re-labelled me as female. Mission accomplished.
Angharad
Angharad
Cute
"...nasty little w*nkers..."
Although I know you're joking, you do realize that someone is going to think you were serious, don't you? From little embers of misunderstanding come great forest fires of flamewar.
Next time you tell a joke... Smile, pardner!
FIRST PRIZE
ALISON
'for the best explanation goes to Nancy Cole.Nobody else even got close to her.
As for the rest of you,all that can be said is that even though the evocative
lyricism of your arguments did,at times tend to become over tenuous,they
never the less achieved an aesthetically integrated harmony.So,in conclusion,
may I say this zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
ALISON
a less technical look at it
The difference between a cross-dresser and a transsexual...
is a girl in a leotard ... and an Olympic gymnast
is your daughter in a tutu ... and a ballerina
is your husband singing in the shower ... and that tenor nailing the G at the Met.
The one does something because they enjoy it, they like how it feels and they don't care if its a little foolish compared to what other people believe is normal. The other is dedicated to being that thing, no matter how hard they have to make it a reality... it's just their nature; while talent might lead them there sooner, it's never an easy road.
Oversimplification
...and a bit off-track, in my humble opinion.
I think you missed the entire message of my post, and in Dr. Lori's lecture. The question posed in the subject of this post is not directly answerable without consulting her chart. Your comment is still rooted in the assumption that they are degrees of the same thing.
They are not.
One is primarily a manifestation of gender identity. As I understand it, its main symptom is one of deep psychological distress at the condition until it is medically addressed with physical sexual reassignment interventions.
The other is a little more diverse and confusing, and less well understood, even by the people affected. We measure it through its expression of Aesthetic, and call it gender presentation.
Aesthetic/Presentation and Gender Identity are not related. The existence of butch lesbians and effeminate gay male "bears" proves this. Someone else mentioned their theory that gender identity, presentation and sexual orientation were related. This is disproved by the existence of femme lesbians.
People are complex. Sex, sexuality and gender are complex. Simple models are just... wrong.
>> Aesthetic/Presentation and Gender Identity are not related.
Well, it depends on whom one asks. Femme and Butch lesbians (with the exception of latent FtM lesbians who may later decide to be either heterosexual or gay) present female roles and manners of behaviour and dress, not a sort of shadow masculinity and femininity. A Femme is not easily confused with a heterosexual woman, either in behaviour, dress, or attitude. Likewise, a Butch is inimitable by any man. In this particular case, I strongly suspect that the perceived utility of the theory is entirely dependent on the scarcity of the theorist's knowledge of the subjects supposedly described.
For just this reason, the less one knows about astrophysics, the more plausible astrology may seem.
Presentation, sexuality, and behaviour have an extremely strong correlation to biological sex in cultural context, so claims that these are in any way independent variables fall victim to actual observation. But the external culture is what determines much of the actual variability, so we find cultures in which women habitually wear trousers and men habitually wear skirts, and both sexes feel uncomfortable when "cross-dressed," even if their notion of cross-dressing is quite different to that of Western Europeans. So too we see cultures in which homosexuality is preferred, and heterosexuality a somewhat perverted alternative, cultures in which homosexual lovers are held up as the bravest and most manly of warriors, the admired objects of every citizen's affection and respect.
What this means is that few, if any, of these "dimensions" are innate, but are merely habits of thought and preconception, any one of which can be changed if one has the will and courage to do so and it seems advisable for any reason.
All these things are maya, illusion, internal constructs of the brain which may or may not have close linkages to external reality.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Not Statistics
Pud, we're not dealing with statistics, but with the broad range of human manifestations. Yes, within a cultural context, you'll see a statistically large number of individuals who comply with popularly-held assumptions.
But, looking at the individuals who do not comply, we find that there is no causal linkage between the parameters of those various and sundry axes of Dr. Lori's model. Being female does not require you to use lipstick. Being male does not require you to be macho. Being a male who is sexually attracted to males does not require you to act effeminate, to present as feminine, or to hold a female gender identity. Being a butch lesbian woman does not require you to hold a male gender identity, or to be attracted to femmes. I've met butch lesbian couples.
As these people actually exist, your theories are not useful.
>> not useful.
My "theory" is that most of these variables are not scalar, which is what seems to be implied by the presentation. We're most of us a complex network of arrays.
To use a simple example, almost every woman has an array of "presentation states" which vary by age, situation, time of day, day of the week, social venue, her relationship status, her own sensitivity to these external stimuli, and many other variables. Lipstick means nothing by itself. Lingerie means nothing by itself. Dresses mean nothing by themselves. Trousers mean nothing by themselves. Context is everything.
Many women, perhaps most at one time or another, are situationally heterosexual, bisexual, or lesbian, as are many men. In the narrow sense the words "lesbian" or "gay" often implies, there ain't no such thing. Neither is there any such thing as "straight," but only people whose context hasn't included the opportunity to be anything else.
I pointed out, I think, that what we do and who we are is defined by cultural context. Before the concept "transsexual" existed, people didn't define themselves as "transsexuals," any more than any human beings in or around the court of Charlemagne described themselves as "nuclear physicists."
We can't look at the life of Einhard, for example, Charlemagne's biographer, and say, "Oh, well, he would have been a nuclear physicist, if only the cyclotron had been invented in 817 of the Common Era."
I mentioned, for example, "amok," a specific *action* with specific characteristics, including random murderous violence and situational amnesia. This behaviour has essentially disappeared, as the cultural context changed out from under it, so "amok" no longer has a cultural referent, so people don't do it any more.
Likewise, we can't look at the life of anyone before the invention of transsexuality in the early to mid part of the Twentieth Century and say, "There's a transsexual." That's not to say that people don't try to say similar things, but this is a form of cultural imperialism, colonising the past with "our" ideas, as if they are the common currency of all humanity. Feh!
The "Two-Spirit" people of some Native American/First Nations cultures had a different aetiology and context. One had to be "called" to that status as a representative of the community in a spiritual and religious context, and without that context one can no more describe one's self as "two-spirited" than one can say "I am a Roman Catholic Priest." Indeed, it's moderately unlikely that such individuals truly exist in modern times, because almost every Native American/First Nation peoples have been colonised by Christianity, which doesn't have a similar spiritual hierarchy and value system. In the true aboriginal societies, one was born in an indeterminate status, and grew into what gender role one would enact as one aged, just as one might grow to be a poet, or a warrior, or a homemaker. This aboriginal worldview no longer exists in any sort of pure form, and almost all modern First Nations people pay careful attention when the doctor announces "It's a boy," or "It's a girl," just like everyone else.
In fact, modern Two-Spirit people often find hostility in all of the dominant GLBT subgroups, as well as within their own communities, because their community situations are usually centred in some form of conservative Christianity, and none of the Western theories of transsexuality, lesbian identity, gay identity, or bisexuality fit their own perceptions of themselves.
Likewise, one can't say "Oh, a man called to be a Priestess of Cybele in antiquity was a transsexual," any more than a man called to the Roman Catholic Priesthood is either a eunuch or a "wannabe castrato." Without a cultural and contextual belief in the reality of Cybele and Attis, or the reality of the Trinity and the Priesthood, neither of these options are open to any of us. One isn't a Catholic Priest unless other people think you are. One isn't a Priestess of Cybele unless other people think you are, and I dare say believers in Cybele and Attis aren't thick on the ground these days.
We're all of us creatures of infinite possibilities, and we all, in our time, may "play many parts." This is inherent in being human, and no human behaviour is completely alien to any of us. But at the same time, we all have to agree on our "reality."
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
>> Being female does not require you to use lipstick.
Like hell. In certain situations in Western society, men have to wear sack suits and ties, whilst women have to wear women's business attire and "suitable" makeup. Not everywhere, not in every job, but in some situations that real women encounter. Some women don't mind at all. Some women think it's a pain in the tuchas. But we most all of us have to do it at one time or another, unless we're lucky enough to be welders or auto mechanics.
In some religious contexts, either men, or women, or both, have to cover their hair or head, in some cases symbolically. It's offensive not to, and therefore impolite. It doesn't matter whether one is CofE or not, or even religious, wearing a bathing costume is not appropriate in Winchester Cathedral, and anyone who does so is a clod.
When I was younger, I interviewed for a customer contact position (account manager was the official title) in a consulting firm (Control Data). I dressed appropriately, or so I thought, for the interviews, and did very well I thought, and evidently they thought so too because I was offered the job, but the offer was conditioned on adopting a more elaborated (and more expensive) form of business dress and makeup before I showed up on the first day, which required me to make a hasty trip to Nordstroms (and several other upscale stores) for better shoes, real gold earrings and jewellery, and more expensive business suits than I had ever owned before.
I spent more than US$2500 before I ever saw a customer, and to lay in enough in the way of "business attire" to maintain a fresh and changing "appropriate" appearance wound up spending more than US$500-600 a month on "upkeep" and new clothes in season. I was extremely irritated, because I lived in Southern California, so what on Earth did "seasons" mean to me? I was especially ticked off because my expenses were much larger than any of the male account managers, but I was paid approximately four fifths of their salaries.
Likewise, I hated manicures and any sort of fingernails, being moderately inclined toward a soft butch comfort when left to my own devises*. I spent most of my time writing -- when I wasn't schmoozing with customers -- and had to learn how to type all over again, and had to have my "colours" analysed, as that was all the rage back then, and spend more time "accessorising" than any human being should have to do in polite society. I wasn't an entirely happy camper.
Cheers,
Puddin'
* There are many "lipstick" lesbians, but very few with half-inch acrylic nails.
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
This is still a most
This is still a most memorable discussion, and a very fond memory.
I'm glad you keep a copy, Pippa.
Nicole (a.k.a. Itinerant)
--
Veni, Vidi, Velcro:
I came, I saw, I stuck around.
Nicole (a.k.a. Itinerant)
--
Veni, Vidi, Velcro:
I came, I saw, I stuck around.