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As a CD, my dream ambition would be to totally pass as a woman - not just on a casual encounter, but in a work or social situation on a day to day basis. I'm realistic enough to realise that this is unlikely to happen unless some of the devices I read about on this site really become available.
However, I'm also realistic enough to know I am never going to be a beauty queen or fashion model. In order to blend in as a woman, I have to dress as most women dress. There are very few woman of my height, and they certainly would not wear short skirts and high heels; a corset-clinched waist would look ridiculous when one has shoulders as broad as mine; and very few women have melon-sized breasts, and those that do certainly do not blend in with other women.
So, I need to be an average-looking heavily-built woman, with big hips and butt to balance my wide shoulders, wearing trousers or long, concealing skirts, with flat-heeled shoes.
I wonder how unusual my ambitions are. OK, I know lots of males cross dress, but mostly they seem to wear all the things to make it totally apparent they are male rather than trying to blend in as a female (male mutton dressed as female lamb!).
So my question is, am I alone in this kind of semi-realistic ambition or do lots of other CDs share my dream?
Comments
Blending in is a matter of survival
I don't know how many CDs share your way of thinking, but most MtF TG/TS women learn that blending in is a matter of survival.
Many (perhaps most) CDs seem to view appearance as a costume, the chance to play a fantasy role. The concept of blending in is more an acceptance of reality.
That's just an opinion. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
Kris
Kris
{I leave a trail of Kudos as I browse the site. Be careful where you step!}
Yes You Did
. . .offend someone.
Where do you get your statistics that most CDs view appearance as a costume?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
At the risk of appearing unoriginal, I must agree with Jill...
...I find myself disappointed that you made the statement with absolutely nothing except conjecture and opinion to back it up, and it is offensive.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Offense can be found...
...if one is looking for it. The statement had three qualifiers and while it may be argued with, taking the notion that it is offensive on the face of it seems not in the spirit in which the statement was made. Read my sig.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Read it again
That's not what was said. See my sig.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Perhaps you're right...
....I suppose....I imagine....but I wasn't looking for anything...and she did apologize ahead of time...anticipating that it might offend someone...just that qualifier "most" popping up once again...sorry.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Actually
The qualifiers are "many" and "seems" and "perhaps" -- as I said, you have to be looking for the "most" to be offended by it, it's almost qualified out of existence. And with an apology ahead of time, what exactly is your protest aimed at doing?
Everyone is sensitive on some subject. I'm trying here to offer a bit of education in how to read past one's sensitivities to try to determine what is meant by something that seems to offend. I don't think what is meant here is intended to be hurtful, it is simply a personal observation. It's not even unkind. Perhaps "some" instead of many or a qualified most would have been more politic.
I hope everyone notices that I do often speak in partialities and inclusions rather than absolutes and exclusions. This is careful and deliberate. The comment we are speaking of here was thoughtfully made and deserves some credit for that, even if with more care and thought there would be no possible offense. Partial credit has to count for something. :)
It would be very, very hard to disagree or take offense with the following statement: "Some people seem to regard their clothing as costumes." It's so trivial what would be the point of saying it? Discourse cannot be sanitized to that degree and be useful.
By the same token, it isn't right to suppress your or Jill's objections, they are meaningful, too. And should be regarded as meaningful.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
WELLLLLL...if you put it that way...
...did I say I was a tad sensitive? Thanks for bringing some perspective and objectivity for me to consider. The trouble about being me is I usually just see my own point of view...at least at first. Hopefully I'm teachable enough to see someone else's point of view. So here's to objectivity! Thanks.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
To Erin, and all I have offended
Erin,
Thank you. I'm sorry I ignited a mini-firestorm that you had to jump in to keep it from spreading.
To everyone else,
I apologize for my ill-chosen words that gave offense. Those of you who have expressed your displeasure are people who I hold in high regard for your contributions to BC. I would not intentionally be hurtful or disrespectful.
Had I taken more time, and written a lengthly comment, I might have been able to express my thoughts in a different way. Or perhaps with more reflection I would have chosen to send them to the bit-bucket.
Now I'll try to be good for a while! Maybe I can limit my comments to my heartfelt praise for the many fine authors who give me so many hours of reading pleasure.
With deep regards,
Kris
Kris
{I leave a trail of Kudos as I browse the site. Be careful where you step!}
Don't Be So Quick...
...to dismiss Kris's conjecture. Jill, it not only agrees with things I have read, but matches well with my own knowledge from my discussions with my therapist, and with a friend who happens to be a therapist, and my observations from work on two Transgender committees, as well as several years of conversations on a number of chat groups.
Fear is a big factor, as well as convenience and the need to be able to switch back with no traces. As someone who cultivates longish nails, long hair, tweezed brow, and shaved body, but lives primarily as a male, I can tell you it took me years to develop the courage and lack of guilt to do it, and that most crossdressers don't and don't feel they can.
The vast majority of MtF crossdressers never leave their homes en femme. They dress for themselves for the most part. It's a minority of those who can even share the experience with their spouses. It's a much smaller number who share that knowledge of themselves with anyone else in their lives.
So, what do you call clothes worn to play a part? For most of these men it's not a part that can be lived, or that they necessarily even want to live. It's a sometimes opportunity, an expression of a feminine side, or an homage to femininity, and to do it, they need (dare I say it?) a costume.
Uhmmmm - I Don't Agree Erin
Sometimes the only qualifiers that counts is the one that isn't used -- because you didn't publish the remark.
Look - on the way to work this morning I listened to a talk show I've never heard before. My daughter had borrowed my car and the radio had been set to a teen-oriented station. Within ten minutes the fool at the microphone made two "jokes" about transvestites. I sent an e-mail to that radio station suggesting to them that they try subbing the word "gays" for where they used "transvestites" to see if they thought their jokes would go over.
I'm a cross-dresser who has never left my home overtly en femme -- other than Halloween. I call myself a cross-dresser because I prefer female clothing, but have elected NOT to go through the process of an SRS, for a variety of reasons.
UNQUALIFIED -- my feminine clothes are NOT a costume. They are important to me. If anything, my male clothes are costumes.
Am I suffering under an illusion that I'm that much different from other cross-dressers? Maybe I'm defining cross-dresser all wrong. Maybe the fact that I would become a woman in a second, if the stars were properly aligned, makes me TS and a counterfeit CD.
I'm not sure where whether I leave my home or not fits in. I'm not sure whether of not Pippa's experience in the TG community is beyond mine. I do know that I'm offended by a statement that suggests CD's are wearing a costume whereas a TS is trying to "blend". Certainly CDs of the kind who costume themselves like Dorothy of Oz seem to fit the vein the therapists discussed.
My experience in this community suggests that when you think you know what "most" people do, you're in for an education. I can see that the original statement wasn't meant to hurt, but it begged a response. Those that know me know that if I was horribly offended I would have said much more. I only responded because sometimes people need to substitute the letters TS for CD and see if their stated opinions are acceptable -- no matter how qualified.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Good to talk about it
The original comment was highly qualified perhaps in an attempt to express an observation without giving offense. One can still give offense in that situation, though and should be aware that a negative response may happen.
Your reply to me above explains your position much more fully and explains why you felt offended. Your first comment on the earlier comment contained a misquote, which was why I asked you to read the first comment again. Yes, the qualifications produced the appearance of an insinuation and the insinuation was what you objected to, and calling attention to that was legitimate. But by misquoting, you made your comment less effective logically.
These are emotional topics and are going to be painful to discuss in any case.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Limited Ambitions
My ambition is a bit more limited. I'm happy just for any social situation that will accept me when dressed, and I've been both cautious and sparing of my outings. So far, this has mostly been a couple of local friendly lesbian bars. I'm not overtly masculine in behavior, but I make no effort to overplay the feminine part, either. While I'm sometimes the most femininely-dressed person in the bar, or at least at the pool table, I just act my usual easy-going self. Given the company, I'm hardly the most masculine-acting. As the old joke says, "If you want to look thinner, hang around with fat people."
Other than my clothes, hair, makeup and accessories, I make no effort to disguise who or what I am. I use my real male name when introducing myself, wear my wedding ring, smile a lot, compliment others and generally try to be pleasant. I get on well with most everyone, have gotten a few good-natured comments and compliments, some nice long conversations, and even a few hugs. The secret of getting on with people in that setting is not so much trying to totally deceive them, but to be true to yourself, take as much effort with your appearance as possible, be open, friendly and honest with them, and not an a-hole.
It's been a few months since my last outing, and I probably owe myself another one soon!
___________________
If a picture is worth 1000 words, this is at least part of my story.
Ahhh, the tyranny of passing...
Okay, dont want to stir up a hornets nest - this is my opinion only.
I have read much recently about passing and while it is hard, especially for the likes of me, to pass as a woman, it is easy for me to pass as transgender. It is my considered opinion that passing and acceptance are two entirely different things. Although passing can make things easier in some situations, acceptance comes from being taken for who I am, flaws and all. Passing is a kind of tyranny, for would the lesbian be expected to pass as straight, or the disabled to pass as able bodied?
For me, if the aim is to go out and not get much grief / unwarranted attention, then don't draw attention to yourself and as another wrote - appropriate place / time / dress etc., and most of all, trying not to be visibly nervous / defensive / furtive as this makes you stand out a mile, regardless of appearance. And this, from myself, looking like the bride of lurch, travelling on the last train home, surrounded by drunks! Acceptance from others comes from accepting yourself and being yourself - there will always be the odd halfwit, or the nemesis of most T girls - teenage girls to pass comment, but then again, this happens to non TG folks too.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to pass, but only in the fact that I would like the outside to match the inside. Sorry if this post causes any offence.
Take care and be happy - Jayne
Come release the inner twaddle: My blog => http://jaym.angelblogs.co.uk/
That which does not kill me only serves to delay the inevitable. My blog => http://jaynemorose.wordpress.com/ <= note new address
Yes, absolutely, know your limitations
I am blessed to being quite passable - with a bit of work of course.
It however is not necessarily a tyranny. One person's tyranny is another person's normality. It is not a tyranny if it is done with intent and joy - with purpose. It is only tyrannical if one feels it is unfairly restrictive of your wants and needs.
Here is a real life example, if I want to pass as a professor of physics, does that mean a) one needs to have the aptitude for it, b) you have to have a plan to work towards that knowledge and c) Do I have the money to pay for tuition to earn that knowledge? Now is it a tyranny that in order to pass as a Physics professor - in real life mind you - you have to meet those requirements?
Why should passing be any different?
Now it sucks if you are TS, no question, as TS folks pretty much need to pass if they want a low key life. Now does that mean TS folks must pass ? Of course not, but never bemoan it if that is the reality you have. To force people to not want to expect 'normal' is a Quixotic quest and a waste of time. Just be ready with a plan to deal with any non-passing issues.
Kim
Thanks Kimmie for your reply.
You are quite correct of course. The point I was (badly) trying to make is that passing is something that has been imposed from the outside world and it is a sad indictment of society in general that people feel they have to pass in order to have any sort of normal existence. If it is the intent of the individual to pass, then all is well and good and I wish them every success.
That which does not kill me only serves to delay the inevitable. My blog => http://jaynemorose.wordpress.com/ <= note new address
I used my crossdressing to learn.
I had a period when I thought that crossdressing would be enough.
I don't think that blanket statements about any group and that goes the whole spectrum from Construction guys to Muslims of which I have been both. If you want to be seen as a woman all the time, you do really need to meet the size criteria. Sure, there are 6'3" women, but they have the anatomically loose knees, and wide pevis that we don't. I have seen some T women who move like genetic women, but it demands a lot of training and constant vigilance. When my Arthritis is acting up, I look like a little logger in a dress. Most of us are really sad because we got the wrong damned body, including me. What's the use.
Really ladies, life is too short to be childishly ripping at each other.
Khadijah