Author:
It seems all of us have an opinion on words and spelling errors we spot in the stories we read. I have a few of those such as "your" (possessive) used in place of "you're" (contraction of you are) and visa versa.
He drove to (modifier) the park. He wanted to go too (also) soft adjective)
To be fair I set a lot of readers teeth on edge by slaying the King's English and use of colloquialisms. In defense of my abuse of English which I was forced to try and learn and failed miserably. Because of the hodge podge of languages it is derived from it's like learning a couple dozen different languages. Centuries of, mixing them together and tormenting all those who are forced to use it into communicating with it. We won't mention what our cousins across the pond do with it. If that wasn't enough it keeps dropping words from use and adding new ones all the time. Ain't that the truth.
https://aeon.co/essays/why-is-the-english-spelling-system-so...
Hugs people
Barb
Life is too short to take seriously. Have fun with it.
Comments
Weirdness
Some of the weirdness came after the Norman invasion and conquest. Many words were modified to be more French like in spelling and pronunciation. Some of that disappeared in our Americanized versions of the words.
'Shakes head'
Just go ahead and blame the Normans... It's all our fault. Okay....
Love, Andrea Lena
Olivia de Havilland as Maid Marian
Olivia de Havilland and her sister, Joan Fontaine, went to the same high school I went to, though much earlier in time.
A Linguist comments
Historic bit: Anglo-Saxon/Old English was an inflected language, in that cases were indicated by changing word endings, rather like Latin, rather than use prepositions and conjunctions. It collided head on with Norse (various kinds), which used P's and C's.
"Ooh!", said Aethaelfraergwaensaen Eorpeorpeorpstan, on hearing Ulf Ulfssonssonssonsson speak, "That looks a LOT easier!". OE basically dumped the case endings, kept the basic words, and added prepositions and conjunctions to become Middle English. The Normans largely influenced English only in th eextra vocabulary. The next really big change was the Great Vowel Shift, which is why a lot pf placenames changed,
The word 'burn', a stream in Northumbrian and Scots, is pronounced 'born' in Northumbria. Similarly, bird becomes 'bord', walk becomes 'waak', work becomes 'wawk' and so on. The old pronunciation is preserved in many placenames, but the spelling had to be changed. Winterbourne, Bournemouth, Eastbourne and so on.
my biggest issue are certain people
That write their stories in the wrong tense. I know of a few authors that write everything in present tense, as if it is happening at that exact moment. That bugs me, because in my head I fall into the trap of having to change the tenses and correct it on the fly. It gets to be too much work. Ruins my enjoyment of the story, and makes me give up. Now when I see those particular authors, I don't bother.
First person Present tense
What's wrong with writing a story in First Person Present Tense? As long as you stick to the other rules.
It's joke tense
First person present tense is what I call "joke tense". You know, you've heard it a lot... "A priest, a rabbi, and a Lutheran minister go into to a bar. The bar tender says 'Hey, what are three men in frocks doing in my bar'... OK bad joke.
It's fine for a joke. Jokes don't play well in past tense, but the written word is always in past tense or future tense. What has happened or what will happen. No one writing a story is writing it as it happens. Only the spoken word happens in present tense. Like a sports announcer on the radio conveying to the listening audience what's happening right now. The very act of writing it down means it happened in the past or that it's prediction of the future.
It's the disconnect between written and spoken that makes it awkward to read.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin ein femininer Mann
Just pick a tense and stick to it
is all I ask of a story. There's a prolific, popular author here
who yo-yos back and forth between past and present tense
several times in every paragraph and sometimes even within
the same sentence. I find that too disorienting to bother reading
but even that's just my preference. First person present tense is fine.
and anybody who tells you that you must write only one certain way
has an inflated view of their own authority. Readability is overrated.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
~hugs, Veronica
Well shit, I guess it really CAN happen here..,
.
Readability
"Readability is overrated."
No, it is a key factor in reading pretty much everything. Scientific papers are one example. But readability issues affect both non-fiction and fictional issues. If the intended readers can't understand the words on the page before them, then the readability issues have spoiled their enjoyment of what they are trying to read.
Ever read "The Rise And Fall of The Third Reich"? If so, did you finish it? That is a good example of a book that is so densely packed that eventually most readers put it down and walk away from it.
No, readability is a key factor in anything written, unless you don't care if your work is ever read or appreciated. Mark Twain's (Samuel Clemmon's) works are still widely read today because they are eminently readable, as well as enjoyable.
.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Readability
Sure round wheels on a car will take you where you want to go
smoothly and efficiently. But square wheels are more fun!
~hugs, Veronica
Well shit, I guess it really CAN happen here..,
.
I'm a wigwam! I'm a teepee!
I'm two tents! Okay, I know tense doesn't have much to do with tents, but the play on words was just too much to resist. ;)
There's nothing wrong with present tense itself
It is a problem when it is used describing something in the past, and the author indiscriminately mixes tenses. There is one prolific author on BCTS whose stories have a good storyline but I find impossible to read because of mixed a dominant present tense with frequent past tense references to the same event. I avoid reading this author's work as it so strongly affects my enjoyment of a good plot. I occasionally glance at a new title by the same author, and find the same problem persists!
Present tense and other stuff
I tend to write in simple past tense. It works for me, and it suits the way I write. The extremely successful (and wonderfully trans positive) Charlie Stross, author of the 'Laundry Files' series, writes in present tense. Oddly, it took me a little while before I noticed, because his style flows nicely. What works for him wouldn't work for me; what works for me, etc, etc.
I have a strong opinion on prose style, which ties into the comments about 'readability'. A strong opinion, but a simple one.
Good prose in fiction should do one of two things. and it takes an exceptional author to pull both off at once. It should either be so seamlessly smooth that it effectively becomes invisible, and the reader is picked up and carried along with the flow, or it is so beautifully done that said reader has to pause for a 'WOW!' moment every now and again. Doesn't stop some people getting rich, though.
Dan Brown's writing is like 'Janet and John', or 'Spot the Dog', almost entirely telegraphic utterances (See the dog. The dog is Spot. See Spot run)
JK Rowling, along with being profoundly unpleasant as a person, writes extremely clunky prose.
George Lucas and dialogue: oh dear...
Stephen R ,Donaldson is so obsessed with playing thesaurus dominance games he is unreadable. He also repeats any 'clever ideas' he gets, so that even when he separates them by 1,000 pages, they still leap out at you. There is also 'clench racing', where two people pick up an SRD book each (doesn't matter which one, or if they are different books), they each open their book at random, and the winner is the one who first finds that C-word.
No: not THAT C-word, but 'clench'.
Choose a Tense...
There's one prolific author here who apparently doesn't see the need to stick to either present or past tense, sometimes mixing them up in the same paragraph or even in the teaser. (Or at least that was the case the couple of times I tried to read her some years back.)
My only problem with present-tense stories -- I found T D Aldoenetti's (non-TG) novel Tranquility: Sorcerer/Sorceress very enjoyable when it first appeared on the Fictioneers site, despite its tense -- is that it can seem as though one is reading a synopsis of a story and not the story itself. (Denise/Anesidora, who at one point was preparing it for a book format with illustrations, discussed their changing it to past tense before publication, but none of those involved are alive now to ask.)
Eric
Crazy
English is crazy. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.
-- Daphne Xu
It can be fun as well
Just start looking into the local names for the humble Dandelion plant. There are several hundred in England alone. Much like the hundreds of words that the Inuit have for snow.
English is a fluid language. It continually evolves unlike other variants of the language. Like fashions, words come into fashion and others drop out of common use. Names are a good one. Almost no one these days calls their son Stanley. Yet there were three in my year at school. Simon is another one. Some of the more modern names in use today are more like anchors around the child's neck that names to be proud of.
If you get the basics right then you can't go far wrong.
as for the 'your' and, 'you're' dilemma, my simple rule is not to even try to abbreviate it. If 'you are' works then leave well alone.
The grammar police can go jump off the nearest cliff as far as I'm concerned. A lot of teachers failed to teach me it at school and I'm not changing what I am comfortable with. Being dyslexic (and a stubborn barsteward) had a lot to do with it at the time. Thankfully, I have overcome most of its effects.
Samantha
As Ted Geisel said
As Ted Geisel (aka Dr. Seuss) said. The tough cough as they plough the dough.
Your friend
Crash
Those writers that
change tense several times in the one sentence make reading very hard. As stated previously, present tense in writing is not suitable, but that's my personal opinion (each to their own)
Joanna
think we all know
Who the temse jumpers are, yep, i'm another who has given up trying to read their (not they're or there) prolific outputs.
I wouldn't claim to get it right (or is that write or even here in GOC, reet) all of the time - that's what editors are for! It's certainly not true that all writing should be in future or past tense else why have a present tense? But it does need to be used properly ie if it's happening to the character now it's present, if it's telling of happened events it's past if it's telling what will happen it's future - pretty simple really.
So for example, past, present, future in one short passage, each sentence is in a different tense but is correct usage.
Josie waved her parents off before returning to the garden.
"You all right?" Nigel asked.
"Yeah, fine, I hope they don't get caught in all that traffic."
So we had what she did (past), what he said (present) and a prediction of what may happen (future). If something is happening to the character in their 'now' it should be present tense. Back story is always past of course, in reality future should only be used rarely and then most often, as in my example, in conversation.
Then of course there's dialect which can throw a spanner in the works, 'appen. But that's a whole different kettle of fish.
As far as the contractions go, I guess familiarity can breed contempt, if you aren't sure it is probably best to follow Samantha's example and write it in full but personally I find that interrupts the flow whn i'm reading.
Just for clarification,
There - is a reference to a place or position eg itsd over there
Their - is ownership eg it's their turn
They're or they are - is describing an action
Put them all together and you get - over there, they're meeting their parents. Simples
Here endeth the lesson! I don't do the technical terms as many people don't understand the nomenclature of the participles!
Madeline Anafrid Bell
Those online experts in the
Those online experts in the English language should consider other people may not have the same levels of skill when using a non primary language before having thinly disguised snipes.
English may not be the first language, or third language for that matter, of those making mistakes.
Perhaps some have acquired English in day to day conversation and are making an effort to provide free online fiction for the enjoyment of others.
Being bitchy about others does not impress.
Shame on you
アンその他
Or Perhaps
English (American English) is their native tongue, and they had a lousy teacher, or perhaps they didn't pay attention in class.
So, you are saying, in effect, that these people don't deserve to have their errors corrected, so they can learn from them? I learned foreign languages by immersion, that is by speaking with native speakers. I relied on the native speakers to coach or correct me when I made a mistake. In this manner I became more fluent and spoke more fluidly, primarily in Norwegian, and to a lesser degree Flemish/Dutch. I did have problems with Spanish, French, and UK English.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
I know what I am saying thank
I know what I am saying thank you and you miss my point.
Belittling someone’s efforts like that is not teaching.
No one in this thread pointing out a writers faults is attempting to help that writer. They are singling them out for reasons of self glorification.
I repeat shame on them.
That said I vacate this soapbox and thread.
アンその他
several
Offers of editing help, language advice etc have been offered to the authors in question by myself and other authors here. Far from 'belittleing' their efforts this is offering to help improve their skills. The replies have been either silence or abuse in return.
Madeline Anafrid Bell
my bad
I retract my previous comments now that I understand. Thank you for taking time to explain, I feel so stupid for failing understand sooner.
While I'm back on this soap box I want to say they probably don't even care that by not writing correctly they are forcing top authors to waste time reading their posts.
If someone refuses to learn to write right then you really should go right ahead and publicly shame them. They deserve it. Aggression is the only way to teach them.
And a much better plan than just letting others be.
アンその他
Mom used to make me
Mom used to make me send thank you notes to my grandmas and aunts for Christmas and birthday gifts. At least three whole paragraphs including some recent family news or a story about school and friends. Of course this was back in the days when high tech was an electronic typewriter.
Two of my aunts were English teachers. They would send the letters back with corrections and a grade.
Crescenda
aka
Your friend
Crash
Letter corrections
I, too, experienced something similar, Crash.
After finishing secondary school and leaving the family to go out into the wide world on my own, I would sometimes write letters home to maintain the connection with the rest of the family. Making phone calls back then in the early 70's, was an expensive exercise if you needed to talk for more than a few seconds.
My father was a primary school teacher and often I would get my letters returned to me with all the spelling and grammar corrections written in red pen.
Robyn B
Sydney
English is a mess-ter-piece
... as a Russian friend told me.
- io
Two words
Oxford comma
Runs away, cackling in manic glee!
The bear eats, shoots and leaves.
Constructing lists is no laughing matter. Too often parenthetical commentary, diversions, and sub clauses get treated as lists.
But, sometimes, the use of comas is over done. Rules of writing are important, if you want to make yourself clear. In my uneducated, self trained, and informal opinion, readability is paramount. If, after all, our intention is to communicate, then it seems only natural that we would adopt some kind of style guide, just so that we can be proven wrong when we make mistakes.
In any case, always remember: Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
The horse ran past the barn fell.
Crescenda
aka
Your friend
Crash
It Could Be Worse
Was just reading up on the Japanese writing system. Frankly, I don't know how Japanese kids have time for anything else in school other than learning how to read and write. (This, by the way, in response to the spouse's, "How come you don't see any Japanese writing at the Olympics other than scenes with street signs?")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_writing_system
A tense thread
;)
Yeah, but...
Tensors make one tenser.
-- Daphne Xu
I'll just
look, for the mote in my own eye.
Angharad
I wish I could say 'no comment'.
It's pointless offering to help some authors who seemingly make little effort to get it right. I was functionally illiterate up to the age of fifteen so if I could make the effort to learn and try to get most stuff right then others surely can. They are either too lazy or too arrogant.
If a writer's grammar is too bad I simply stop reading it because it becomes a chore. I'll not mention any names, - (No names, no pack drill.) - but Maddy Bell makes a good point. If one offers help to such authors it's often taken as criticism which then invites abuse. Consequently, I stay well clear of criticising anybody.
There are plenty of good authors on BC to enjoy and I read BC for enjoyment
I know of a way to avoid all grammatical/ spelling errors.
Don't write anything. All of those who do will occasionally slip.
Occasionally?
My brain switches things on me all the time. My hands and mouth have been known to jump ahead with future words, even. There's the "Cabibbo Angle" and then there's the "Cobobble Angle".
Sometimes at my keyboard, I remember this tactic: don't look at what I'm writing. Don't look at the keyboard. Look up and close your eyes. My fingers work a whole lot better then. (Not perfectly mind you.)
-- Daphne Xu
Corrections perceived as undermining
I've hesitated a couple of days before posting this because certainly anyone can use online spell-checks and "grammar" checks (such as the one built in to Google Docs), but...
I can easily imagine someone working up the nerve to post a story here, and anxiously anticipating comments about the story, the situation, and the characters, and instead finding a raft of injunctions to learn to spell, to learn to write, etc., along with offers of hand-holding and editing.
It can be daunting.
I'm not talking about myself, of course. I've never mistaken "yore" for "you're" or (worse yet!) "yawl" for "y'all".
What I'm trying to say is, try to be kind, and don't pile on.
- io
Grammar nazis don't care about you, your feelings or your story
They just need to be RIGHT. And superior. And to put you in
your place. That's what makes their little weenies poke up.
Well shit, I guess it really CAN happen here..,
.
Why?
Should a offer to assist from an experinced author to a new author, be "daunting"? If the newbie author just exchanges PMs or emails with the person offering it shouldn't take long to tell if it is what they need or not. If not, a polite "Thank you but . . . . " works wonders.
I have proofread for several authors - spelling and punctuation mostly. Only one author wanted more, and we batted chapters back and forth. He was quite happy with the results and gained enough experience to correct his problems.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Daunting
Everything is daunting to a new author. He's often terrified of the reaction to his initial submission.
-- Daphne Xu