Zoe Taylor is an amazing writer, and if you haven't checked out her stuff, well, you should.
But, having said that, she tends to write works that lean toward lesbian characters, which I've admitted before usually detracts from my interest in a story.
Her latest story didn't have the lesbian tag, though, so I PMed her about it to ask if it was or not before diving in. I got my answer, and everything was good.
Or was it?
I'm all about equality, or at least I try to be. Likewise, I don't think that a story should HAVE to have the character's sexuality tagged out for readers: in some cases it could ruin suspense in the story, and in others it might not affect anything at all.
Yet, when I see a story that DOESN'T have a sexuality tag in it, I question whether I should read it or not. Heck, even when I do I can often be left wondering, "is this a story I want to read?" After all, I tend to think of my sexuality as hetero, but the stories I have an interest in the romantic relationships in many would label as "gay romance" or some variation on it, but even that tag bothers me, implying other elements I simply don't feel comfortable reading. Not only that, but I have a tendency to assume that a lack of sexuality tags implies that the story SHOULD be "hetero" oriented, which isn't a very inclusive attitude to have, is it?
So, I would like to propose to people here a changing of the relationship tags in stories. Lesbian romance, gay romance, neither/either/evs, when it comes to transgendered fiction, don't really cut it, at least not to me. My proposal: in their place, the use of "Male interest," "Female interest," and "T interest" tags, or at least tags to that effect, to describe the relationship interests of protagonists.
Why?
Because I know that a lot of other readers don't share my views. In fact, many hold the exact opposite views, viewing the default preferred relationship status of a story as having a female love interest for the main character, and I've seen commentary to the tune of "I lose interest when I see the main character falling for a guy." What this says is that, unless it is important to the nature of the story to obscure the character's end sexuality, a blank attraction status is less than optimal.
Returning to the talk with Zoe, she mentioned not tagging her story for relationship preference because, in the story, she didn't feel that it would make a difference. I wanted, for a moment, to argue this with her, but she's right. In fact, the ONLY time that a blank relationship preference tag is really applicable to a story is when it doesn't affect anything, by the story featuring either asexual or strictly questioning characters, and simply not dwelling on any romantic relationships at all.
For others, though? To assume that "gay," "lesbian," or "straight," for what little they mean, should any one have a dominance in non-tagged stories is a bit narrow-minded, and I intend to try and stop doing so myself. That said, I don't think that "gay romance" really applies to my work, though many would argue it would. Hence, my suggestion for tags that express sexual preference without explicitly implying character gender, which is far too mutable in the types of stories found here to do much good, really.
Assuming blank tagging means any particular sexuality for the characters within the story is something a lot of us do, but we're really lucky that that isn't, and hasn't, been the case, because if it did, that would imply that any one sexuality were the correct or normal sexuality while the others required specification. Instead, specifying any sexual preference at all means that no one sexuality is the "dominant" one, and is far more inclusive on the whole. To that end, after I see what kind of tags people here think would work best, I'll likely spend a day or two some time soon adding tags to all of my stories.
What does everyone else think?
Melanie E.
Comments
Strongly agree
After I thought about it a bit, I realized that the reason I didn't tag Magic of the Kingdom as "Lesbian Romance" is because it's not a huge feature in the story, and I didn't want to mislead people into thinking it was a core subject.
But on the other hand, it is there, and there are folks like Melanie (whom I consider a good friend by the way, just to clear up that there's no misunderstandings or anything! ^_^) who just don't care to read a story with lesbian romance - or any number of other aversions that might exist, like Magic, future tech, etc.
I absolutely love the idea of a "Male love interest" and "Female love interest" tag, and going forward am definitely going to start using those as custom tags in my stories, at least.
It may give away to much of the story?
if you do it like that, you are certainly giving away some details that soon.
On the other hand I tend to skip stories with tags like forced/blackmailed and stuff, so there's that.
Anne Margarete
Any tag potentially gives things away.
It's all about determining whether you feel that information is something that should be a surprise (if you're the author,) or if it's information you want to be surprised BY (if you're a reader.) For me, I don't want to invest time in reading stories that I won't enjoy in the end. I can't always know whether I will ahead of time or not, but every clue I have at the start as to content can help me to make that decision.
Not every author would want to use these to define sexuality of the protagonist in their stories; I'm simply suggesting it as an overall more accurate alternative to the gay and lesbian romance tags in stories, since those can often be as dependent for appropriateness on the attitudes of the reader as the attitudes of the author. By instead simply defining it as a sexual preference of partner, you open the applicability to apply universally to all T-spectrum subjects -- CDs, TSes, genderqueer, and everything in between -- without making a judgement call on how that defines their sexuality.
There are other advantages to such a tagging system, too, like the removal of romance from the equation (for stories where attraction and even relationships are important but "romance" really isn't a deal.)
Melanie E.
Well then a heterosexeual romance should be there also
then. A lot authors do only Hetero relationships, most notably Bike and there is no tag there. Similarly, too many hetero centric things can sometimes detract from my interest in a story also so I avoid authors who do that too sometimes.
Oh and with regard for tagging for your stuff
I would agree that it is totally gay romance stuff which I avoid also like the plague.
No. No it isn't.
That's the ENTIRE POINT of this different tagging system. Such a gender-loaded indication as "gay" or "lesbian" isn't really useful when referring to trans fiction. After all, if a CD lives as a woman completely but still identifies as a man, is the story lesbian or straight? Likewise, if a FtM falls in love with a guy and never gets his operation, but still identifies as male, is that gay, or straight to you?
Partner preference and gender shouldn't be connected in most cases when it comes to trans fic, I don't think, since it simply muddies the waters and different people see things differently. 9 times out of 10 my characters identify as girls, who like guys: what's gay about that? Conversely, they often choose to define their sexuality not by the gender of their partner, but by who their partner is. Would that make them bi? Or pan? Or what?
It's a needless identifier that is mostly in the eyes of the beholder, and makes it hard to define things satisfactorily to all concerned parties, hence the suggested change.
Melanie E.
If the romance tags were to stay at all, then yes.
The idea would be to try and avoid the whole lesbian/gay/hetero identification on a story at all, and instead focus on the partner preference of the protagonist without the connotation of a specific sexuality in mind. Perhaps have "romance" as a tag of its own to provide that identifier when needed?
I definitely write 99%+ male-partner-oriented fiction, usually with a main character who chooses to not identify themselves so much as gay, straight, or anything else, but simply as being interested in the PERSON they're interested in. To me, eliminating the connection between gender identity and sexuality seems like a fairly natural route to take, but it is nifty seeing the way that other people are viewing the same general idea as a positive for very different reasons than my own :)
Melanie E.
Romance genre tag
There is a Romance Genre tag for if the story really focuses on Romance.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Relationships
I've just posted Tammy Trials #31 and there's plenty of relationships in there but I haven't tagged it for the type of relationship. Without giving spoilers, the characters have to explore their own position in life that that might include same-sex for some. Does it imply a lesbian/gay romance? Not necessarily, at least not on the basis of one date and a kiss. The tag I used on #31 was 'Emotional distress' and the chapter's subtitle of 'Relationships' should warn the reader that not everything is sweetness and roses.
One other thing, I hate loads and loads of tags so use the bare minimum, I actually avoid stories that give the entire plot away through the tags!
Just my 2 cents/tuppence
Shiraz
A questioning sexuality would defy tags
short of, perhaps, a "questioning" tag itself. The idea of this is mostly for stories where a predefined partner preference is a core element of the story.
I differ a bit on the opinion concerning tags. A lot of authors choose not to feature blurbs about their stories still, or include blurbs that do little to nothing to tell readers what to expect in the coming book, and tags can help to alleviate some of the issues associated with that lack of information. On top of that, we're not talking mainstream fic here where there's a very limited variety of things that can typically be expected to come up in your average book in terms of kink, or sexual confusion, or even variation on sexuality (with books that DO explore alternative sexualities typically requiring, unsurprisingly, a tag indicating they do, or some other indication of said nonconformity to expected standards.)
Plus, again, this isn't saying "every story needs tags for character partner preferences," merely that the default tags currently available seem insufficient considering the wide variety of ways that trans sexuality can be interpreted, both by onlookers and those involved. It would still be the domain of the author to choose what tags to use, if any, but such tags could be very beneficial to providing a more inclusive site tagging system. If anything, the default untagged state should be taken to assume either questioning or equal appreciation of all sexes, rather than every reader interpreting it the way that they prefer only to be disappointed a respectable portion of the time on either side.
Typically, if the main character presents as a female for the purposes of their relationship with a woman, then it loses my interest. I lose interest in the same way when I perceive a character to be a guy pursuing a relationship with another guy, though I have heard the argument that I write those stories myself. My preference is for a character who identifies as a girl and who chooses to take the female role -- not submissive role, female role -- in a relationship with a guy. The very types of relationships you typically see in mainstream romance novels and romantic films. It's just my taste. There have been stories that defied that taste on both sides of the divide, but they are few and far between in comparison to those that deviate from my taste and summarily lose if not my interest then at least my immersion in the characters and story. Because of that, some kind of tagging indicating a character's partner preferences means a great deal to me in terms of if I'll bother with a story or not.
Melanie E.
Must disagree a bit
Role is insufficient. Identity is what should be the decider. If one is female in identity then it is het in a relationship with a guy. It would make people like the Alice Novics of the world who happen to cavort with a guy being hetero, which is not.
Of course for gender fluid people
It just gets ridiculously hard to pin down.
Yes, yes there are people who are pan-sexual but I know what I like in a partner and it is not equipment that makes the difference but it is the person. A totally masculine partner of either body type takes all the interest out of me.
Just a note from the person who designed the tags
The gay and lesbian romance tags were intended to be for when that was the focus of the story. If enough people want something like male love interest or female love interest, they can be added. :) Again, though, as an author I probably wouldn't use them unless I thought it was important but I might use them. My own stories tend to be about male love interests, I think because, storywise, it makes for a more dramatic change. Personally, I fall in love with people, not equipment. :)
Notice too, the difference between the Theme tags and the Element tags. Themes are central to the plot and story, Elements are incidental and less important. The Romance tags are Themes and their are also Element tags for just the mention of gay males or lesbians. I think these love interest tags should probably be elements to contrast with the romance ones. As I noted above, there is also the Romance tag under Genre; genres are even more fundamental to a story than themes.
The Gay and Lesbian tags in general were conceived as being usable as either warnings to people who might not like that sort of thing and as enticements for those that do. I see these love interest tags as being more informational.
Also, remember that originally, BC was intended to be a LGBT fiction site, not just T*, so some of the tags are sort of left over from that original design.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
It may be more dramatic
But to suddenly go all het to me has always been a source of bias in my eyes. A het bias. There is an implied indication that that is the 'norm' and 'wow it is such an extreme change to become what everyone else is'. To me to change and still retain sexual orientation ( and I know of F->Ms who still like guys) is just as challenging a change, as you are still not going to be considered 'normal' which is rife with opportunity to have other struggles whereas once you become normal female 'yawn' you have all the goodies (yes and the baddies) that come along with it but guess what, there is huge societal support. 'Well it makes sense, if you want to become a girl, you want to have a relationship with a guy'.
So that is why I agree with Mel on the tag thing but for an additional reason. Labeling something het may help normalize the playing field by just making it just another category.
Good perspective for a situation that defies a 'simple' answer
We all parse things differently. A label that fits tidily for one person may be useless or even misleading for someone else.
I can only speak for myself of course, but I've found that over time I get a ...taste... for an author's work, and decide if it's for me or not.
This is a far less tidy solution than a precise tag... but it's the only one I've found workable for me.
The longer I live, the more I learn to live with ambiguity ...and paradox. (As if I had a choice) ;-)
K@
Discounting/Avoiding stories solely on strength
Discounting/Avoiding stories solely on strength of a tag to me is being a little restricting
The above is a tag copied from a story I read and enjoyed, the point I suppose I an trying to make is this
As a rule I usually avoid stories with this tag or similar, and Fem\Dom, but there are stories with the tags to warn of 'CONTENT' and not of substance.
The above tag is from one of JulieO's stories and does indeed involve detailed descriptions of the above, but is done as a way of building a picture as to the was the victims are being abused, and not as away of titillation, the last being is the reason I usually miss those stories, however I am glad I didn't miss Julie's stories as they are well written and thought provoking.
I also, until I found a series of stories about a certain 'Robin Smith', was becoming a little fedup with the way in a lot of stories as soon as Oestrogen became involved the character became a Heterosexual Female.
I think this is why I liked Ang's Cathy Watts ne Cameron, as she said about herself
'I was having some sort of sexual feeling contrary to my previous belief that I was asexual'
I also think that until she met Nikki, and Nikki bared her sole, that Robin was in much the same state of mind, in that except for exploring her femininity, like Cathy she hadn't considered her sexuality.
I suppose what I am trying to say is although in 'Becoming Robin' the lesbian romance is there it is probably more a third or forth plot level, and to tag "Lesbian Romance" would deprive some readers of a great series of stories, and other stories due to one tag.
When reading I have a tendency to choose content for my mood or the way I feel at the time.
For example the three stories that follow, I tend to reread when I'm in a downward spiral mood wise, although for different reasons:-
Sara's Story - A Home That Love Built Story by Catherine Linda Michel
A Final Entry by Heather Rose Brown
She Was Only Fifteen by Luthien Maxwell
It may seem strange to read this sort of content when feeling depressed but:-
Sara's Story is a reminder that there is always SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE that CARES, Along with 'Mature Subjects (pg15)' If Catherine had used the tag Violence as well???
A Final Entry, Heather uses only the tag 'Mature Subjects (pg15)' for some would be enough to give this ENTRY a miss, I can sum this story in 1 word, I can safely say makes me think 'WHY?'
She Was Only Fifteen by Luthien Maxwell, has a tag of
'CAUTION: Suicide'. but at the same time posthumously the parents eyes are opened. Again 1 word springs to mind 'UNDERSTANDING'
I am not saying everyone should read everything, because our tastes in tv, film, music, art, food and the written word are as unique to us as our gender, sexuality and experiences, all these things added together make each one of us unique.
But to discount a story because of a tag.
I hope my ramblings made sense.
As I have referenced certain material, I have made the reference a link to that part of BCTS where the material resides.
Sexual orientation romance tags.
My reaction to the tag would depends on what other tags were also there and the story teaser.
When I see such tags I assume that is what the story is about, And I may not bother reading it not being particularly interested in stories that focus primarily on the fact of the characters sexual orientation as the main point of the story. Mean while I do not mind at all if the stories include any and or all possible orientations. What I am interested is mostly two things, "voyages of self discovery", "adventures of some type", plus of course interesting characters, both together is great.
However I do like romances too and that can include different orientations as long as the focus is the romance not the orientation, yet I do not mind of part of the side story includes dealing with others reaction not fitting the norm.
Does this make any sense?
>i< ..:::
Personal preferences.
Tags exist to allow us, the readers, to exercise personal preferences in choosing a story to read. I personally have a number of "red flag" tags that will cause me to bypass a story. Nearly and "caution" tag, with the exception of "tissue alert", will cause me to skip reading, unless I know the authors work really well and know that it is likely to be handled discretely.
Now as to the sexuality tags. My problem is I'm not sure that they mean the same things to everyone who uses them.
For example. Does lesbian mean the exclusively that the MTF character is interested in genetic female or can it include interest in another MTF? Likewise, does heterosexual imply that our MTF character is interested in men after the transition or, in the case of those who choose not to have "the operation", will it mean that an interest in genetic females persist.
My personal bent follows my lifestyle. While being quite feminine in nature, to the point of feeling like I'm wearing a costume or assuming a fake identity when allowing others to perceive me as male, I'm crazy in love with my wife, a genetic female. Hence when referring to my own sexuality, I say that I'm heterosexual according to my plumbing. I prefer reading stories about people like me, so I guess I fall into that "I tend to lose interest when the protagonist starts falling for guys.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin ein femininer Mann
Hence the recommendation for a M/F preference tag instead.
Determination of sexuality is hard and nebulous for T-folk, so instead of defining things as hetero-, gay, or lesbian, I'll if nothing else do user-made tags referencing the gender of the love interest in the story.
Melanie E.
Supporting your thesis...
As a reader, I find the tags quite useful in making my decisions as to which of the many stories here to read - they inform rather than restrict my choices. I'd like to encourage "...the use of "Male interest," "Female interest," and "T interest" tags..." in any of the Genre, Theme or Element categories, depending on the degree to which they are fundamental to the story (as Erin described above).
Ron