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To me, the only kind of magic is that which you see on stage and on TV - simply about fooling an audience into believing something has no explanation, when in reality it has.
I think most people on this site would define it as something which cannot be explained, but if that is the case, I cannot understand the urge of people to attribute so many things to magic, as though that explained things, when by their definition, it does exactly the opposite.
Personally, I believe EVERYTHING has an explanation, even though we may not know what that explanation is. So Sci Fi, in all its forms, from green Martians and time travel to simply inventing new wonder products is a non-magical explanation - even though it may need a vivid stretch of the imagination.
So, my question is: What is Magic, why do we need it, and why do so many people on this site see it as some kind of explanation?
Comments
It's not an explanation ...
... as much as an alternate way to achieve a deeply desired outcome without the limitations imposed by the current level of medical science. Magic can bring you everything you want in the blink of an eye, whereas (from a fictional point of view), science is limited and locked into this point in space/time, with its emphasis on cause and effect and in lockstep with the ticking of the clock.
Writers here often use magic because its the quickest way to get what they and their characters want. *grin* Although, to be fair, Clarke's Third Law sort of erases that line between science and magic with a single sentence: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
So maybe magic is really just science operating under a different set of rules. *grin*
Randalynn
Clarke's Third Law
I made the same reference the other day, commenting on another blog post.
Clarke's Third Law states that, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws)
There are things that we accept that people fifty years ago would marvel at as magic. When I was a kid, there was no such thing as a remote control for a TV set. Remember the old black and white ones with the round tubes? Tubes????
Then some smart guys had the idea of using sound to trigger motors on the channel changer and volume knobs. Some others tried radio signals.
How many today really understand, really know how a contemporary remote control works? Most people don't. They just wave their magic wands. And our lives are full of this sort of technological wonder.
My point is not to complain about what an old biddy I've become, but to point out that magic (as opposed to illusion) really is technology. Even in ancient times there were formulae and procedures (usually called rituals) to make seemingly miraculous things happen.
So, what's the difference? Not too much, I think.
So, why do we need it? Convenience, I suppose. Easier to just make it happen than go into all of the details that we don't understand, yet? More romantic in that it makes us feel more special about ourselves and talents?
Or maybe 'cause there is our attraction to the unexplained.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
The Definition Of Magic
Magic isn't something that cannot be explained, but merely something that modern science has no explanation for. Or, if you want to be a bit more "rose tinted glasses" about it, magic is seeing the wonder in things no matter how simple or extraordinary.
Long ago, people considered electricity to be magic, and such beliefs were used by magicians and inventors to amaze people. Heck, most of modern physics and chemistry grew from beliefs in magic and alchemy, as did biology and many other fields of science.
Clarke's law, I do believe it is, states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So in a way, magic is anything that is beyond our comprehension or means of obtaining. Magic is hyperdrives and light sabers just as much as it is hugglebugs and Spells R' Us.
Magic isn't an explanation so much as a catch-all for anything that evolves from something beyond current science and understanding. Superhero powers are often a form of magic. Heck, most modern technology would be considered magical to someone from before the renaissance. It's an explanation specifically because it isn't -- it leaves the reasons and operations up to the reader's imagination, and in escapism, which most TG literature is, that can often be a very important part of the experience.
Make any sense?
Melanie E.
Pure Possibility
One of the funniest things I ever heard was a co-worker of mine saying he couldn't watch Science Fiction movies because they weren't real. Very carefully I replied, "You do know that unless it's autobiographical, it's all fiction right? None of it is real?" He simply looked at me dumbfounded.
To me magic is the belief anything is possible. Some give it different types of rules, or limitations, but it is in a way defining a different set of physical rules for the universe than is generally accepted.
As for why, well that's a harder question. Certainly for some of us, we feel only by stepping outside of the accepted boundaries of reality can we achieve our dreams. But really how unusual is that? Every time I read a story where the heroine with just a little makeup can suddenly become a very attractive appearing female I have to withhold my disbelief. Maybe for a few that maybe true, but a lot of us fall outside of that. For that matter Magic is very popular in Pop Culture as well. Look at Twilight (sparkly Vampires) and the Harry Potter books and movies.
Still forgive me if I twitch every time I see the "Real Life" tag. If it's fiction it is not real, duh! SF and Magic are simply playing faster and looser with the accepted Universe.
Of course on the other-side of the story are those who say those are things which couldn't possibly happen while these others may. Not to make light of the continuing crisis in Japan, but how many would've believed that Richter 9 earthquake would've hit that nation and knock half a handful of nuclear reactors into near meltdown? There would've been replies of all the safety precautions and forethought that earthquake prone nation had employed. The idea that all of those would've been lacking would be absurd. However, that is what happened.
Accepted reality is not always correct, and truth is always stranger than fiction. I'm simply write fiction that's a little more stranger than most. :)
Can what I write come true? Probably not, but in a truly infinite universe all things are possible. :)
Hugs!
Grover
You sort of answered your own question
Stage magic is illusion. So is the use of magic in fiction. As you point out, a magical explanation is no explanation at all, it's just the illusion of an explanation. Everyone knows that stage magic is not real but you watch and enjoy the illusion. Fictional magic works the same way.
Magicians on stage wave their hands and recite nonsense words and offer cockamamie "explanations" of what they are doing. None of that fools anyone, really, it just distracts people enough to allow the illusion to work. Many of those "explanations", words and gestures are traditional; they've been used for centuries in some cases.
It's exactly the same thing in fiction writing.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
And don't forget...
It's magic
The stars desert the skies and rush to nestle in your eyes
It's magic
Dio vi benedica tutti
Con grande amore e di affetto
Andrea Lena
Love, Andrea Lena
As the saying goes...
And no, I don't remember who said it!
"...any science advanced enough will be indistinguishable from magic."
Something like that. It also makes a handy plot device for getting things done that are generally considered to be impossible. Like making me look good!
Wren
Magic? Magic!
Aside from advanced technology, there is also the multidimentional explanation for magic. This theory is based on the assumption that there are more dimensions than the three we can observe (discounting time as a dimension here).
Telekinesis for example, would mean that someone capable of it, has sort of an arm and a hand hidden by another dimension(s). This arm doesn't have any measurable atributes in our three dimensions, but nonetheless, it -is- part of the multidimensional universe, and as such interacts with the parts we can see and measure. And like the parts we can see, measure or otherwise explain, it would have it's atributes, laws of multidimensional nature that define it's capabilites as well as it's limitations.
From there it can also be assumed that there would be lifeforms capable, to see, feel or otherwise sense the presence of parts hidden behind the veil of threedimensional space. Their natural capabilities would as much apear as magic as the "sufficiently advanced technology" mentioned above. Can a blind man really understand how the existence of objects lightyears away can be established and proved utilizing light? It would be something like that.
To a degree science and technology has given us instruments with which to manipulate our universe beyond the capabilities of our bodies. Other multidimensional influences can be measured and observed one way or another, but not manipulated (yet?). So yes, this theory actually has a foundation in known science. It's still to be established how other dimensions interact with the part we can see, but there -is- proof that they exist.
Magic is
While I can certainly see the many explanations of magic above, with the presentation of it as a perspective or a way of describing something unexplainable; such answers don't really go far enough to explain just why magic continues to persist as a concept in fiction or in practice in our contemporary world. Magic is more than that... more than just words in a metaphor for something technological. More than a gimmick to move us through to something else without having to go through the things in the middle.
Magic is an extension of the mystical, spiritual, or supernatural world. It often shows just how little people are willing to think on their own when they can believe in a divine being, in the power of faith, and the eternal nature of their own soul with all the rewards and punishments applied due to their actions in this world... and deny the very possibility of magic. If you believe in the power of faith, the impact you can have on the world through prayer, and the healing nature of love and hope... then you believe in magic. If you believe that your actions, moral or not, will lead your spirit to an eternal reward or damnation, then you have to accept that there is a part of us that is not physical. It cannot be measured by any means currently known to science. Are these things so far different than magic?
I have experienced some pretty amazing things in my life... and yet, I've spent much of my adult life in the study and practice of mathematics and science. I'm all too aware of how probability theory works and I know just how unlikely it is that I exist as I do. Just what incredible combination of events over thousands of years led to me being who I currently am. So for me? Sure... I believe in the soul and in much more besides.
Now, that doesn't automatically explain away the sort of magic that we see in TG Fiction. But magic, like the power of faith and prayer, is limited only in what we believe it can accomplish. In the 'real' world, that is usually fairly limited; though occasion exceptional events still occur. Miracles. Coincidences. And our ability to rationalize these things is legendary. But our ability to fantasize and imagine greater things is just as powerful. So instead of using great amounts of effort to bake hundreds of loaves of bread to feed a crowd, we pray over a few loaves and break them up and still have enough to do the job. Now, we don't know if the story is one of fact... or one of metaphor. Or some combination.
Don't confuse prestidigitation...
conjuring, or legerdemain with magick.
Magick is the imposition of the will of the magician on the natural world to do his bidding. It isn't kid's stuff it's actually quite scary and is nothing to do with technology, but with mind.
Angharad
Angharad
It's sexy when you use big words.
Sigh !
K
Different things to different people
Well, I've carefully read all the comments above, and it's clear that one word means different things to different people.
The majority seemed to suggest magic was simply logical fact that science has not yet discovered. OK, so you call it magic and I call it Sci-Fi.
One or two others went onto ideas of spiritual faith and the power of a magician to impose will upon the natural world. From my viewpoint, those two ideas seem very similar, although I guess many would feel deeply offended at such a comparison, for which I apologise - that is not my intention.
I guess the explanation that it's simply a device to get a story written without inventing lots of difficult detail probably resounds best on this site, but I feel it is unsatisfactory that a writer couldn't be bothered to produce a complete story.
However, I have to say I still feel I haven't really got an answer to my question.
unless i'm mistaking your general question
Unless i'm mistaking your general question, you are asking why use magic as a plot device vs a scifi plot device correct?
here the big issue, Magic as a plot device offer you much more flexibility in a lot of cases. And depending on the universe it set in, say a high fantasy setting then it simple part of the physics of the world.
Scifi on the other hand really doesn't, you are normally bound to at least try to fallow the rules of the known universe. you get a lot more wiggle room if you jump into sci-fantasy but in this case you're just using magic by a different name.
But the real big kicker with scifi in general is that it's hard to write. For example a favorite TG scifi plot device is to employ nanobots for the physical changes. But the logic of this means is the culture the story is set in should be radically different then current human culture. after all you have a technology that pretty much means production should be dirt cheap / free, humans should be defecto immortal, and you most likely of AI's in the mix as well.
The more advanced the technology the more alien you have to write the culture that uses it. For example a civilization that doing FTL or interstellar travel you might as well be consider a different species with minds so alien that they only have a superficial resemblance to current humans
Not really
That wasn't really my question - it was more: What does magic mean to readers on this site and why is it embraced as an explanation of a story?
In terms of magic vs SciFi as plot device, I don't accept that SciFi has to be hard to write - it depends how you do it. Simply suggesting that the solution is a wonderful drug rather than a magic potion is a SciFi solution which hardly stretches the capabilities of any writer.
I guess what set my mind wondering about this whole subject was a comment to my most recent story, in which the sap from a tree in a tropical forest had remarkable scientific properties (read the story if you're really interested). However, the reader insisted that the solution must be magic, rather than scientific, as though magic was an explanation rather than a cop out. Nothing I have read on this blog really explains why people are more ready to believe the unexplainable (ie magic) rather than the explainable.
I don't believe they are
Nor do I see any dirth of honest and understandable reasons for magic in stories in the comments that have been posted.
TG fiction is escapism. Escapism is by definition designed to pull one out of their own reality and into another. There are at least as many sci fi TG fiction stories as fantasy ones out there, so I wouldn't say either one is more readily accepted than the other. On the other hand, people do tend to be more forgiving of mistakes in logic and mechanics in magic-based stories -- I've seen it more than once that someone has laid out an author for a small mistake in a sci fi story that would be completely ignored in one where the solution was called magic.
For literary purposes, magic is as good an explanation as science fiction. Either way requires a certain suspension of disbelief, some less so than others depending on the person you ask. Trying to insist that one is okay while the other is just silly -- which your tone seems to suggest -- is, simply put, insulting to those who enjoy and write that type of story.
Pay close attention, and not only does science fiction tend to hand-wave explanations at least as bad as the magic usually presented in stories does, but it can sometimes be worse. How often do you question a writer on how the "warp drive" in their starship works to ferry its contents across the universe, or do you simply accept that it does because it's a warp drive? Do you expect writers' descriptions of alien races do be based on research that can accurately quantify why every species is humanoid to some extent and has the capability to speak English, or do you accept it as a given to carry the story on? How often, really, do you think mankind would be able to come across other planets with the exact balance of gases in the atmosphere necessary to be breathable, little long multiple planets in the same solar system? You will occasionally find people who take the time to explain this all, but it is usually fringe science at best that is used even then, and really, how is most of that any different than magical explanations?
Telekinesis and ESP are present in both magical and science fiction realms. Is it any "better" in sci fi for having a hacked together explanation? What about travel in different dimensions/planes of existence? If an alien species is so far advanced beyond our level of technology as to be completely unfathomable, how is saying that any more of an explanation than "it's magic?"
Jules Verne, I do believe it was, theorized that you could travel to the moon in a ship made of lighter-than-air metals. We know that these don't exist, yet this is still science fiction. H.G. Wells introduced us to his time machine. It's mechanics are never fully explained, and it breaks all our knowledge of physics both practical and quantum, yet it's still considered science fiction. How are either of these explanations "better" than magic, when in most people's eyes they are just as unlikely or childish in their presentation? If I were to define magic as "the ability to wield forces beyond our comprehension to enact change in or bring about knowledge of our physical world," then does it not explain anything it covers at least as well as most science fiction?
Perhaps you simply do not like stories with magic, which is fine, it really is. Everyone has different tastes. But so far, plenty of people have presented you with their reasons for why they do like it, or see it as a viable alternative to science fiction. You don't have to agree with them, but please do try to see their viewpoints even if you don't share them.
Melanie E.
Trying to understand should never be classed as silly
That's not to say that I am not sometimes provocative about an issue to try to evoke a response, but I really am looking for an answer rather than a confrontation.
But your answer epitomises the very problem I have between SciFi and magic. It's fine to say something is magic with no further explanation than that, but mention a warp drive and you not only want the formula for it, you seem to consider an author is cheating if they don't have it!
I repeat what I said in my previous post - an author only has to call a product a "wonder drug" rather than a "magic potion" to give a perfectly acceptable explanation. I still don't understand why many authors - and readers - prefer the latter.
And I'm afraid after reading all the responses, I am still no closer to feeling I have any kind of answer, other than that magic is something with no explanation, and many readers really do prefer that.
The point
Have you never read any of the stories where magic WAS explained? Powers from the gods, demonic gifts, the natural progression of human evolution to access energies that otherwise lay beyond our reach... these have all been used for explanations of magic. There can be reasons applied, and the best fantasy -- like the best science fiction -- often delves into these reasons behind the forces existing. The entire point I've been trying to make, though I'll admit I've possibly gone about it badly, is that in fiction magic is often used to emphasize the point that just because something can be explained doesn't mean it needs to be.
Consider your "magic potion" versus "wonder drug" situation above. The former name for the product emphasizes its unique and mysterious nature. You could delve into the deeper meaning of it by examining the spells cast, where their power comes from, what ingredients were used for what purposes, and so on, but all of that is unnecessary for the character to know; the knowledge that it is a magic potion is enough to satisfy their curiosity more often than not. Your wonder drug explanation, on the other hand, emphasizes the idea that you are trying to impose scientific rules upon how the object works, and as such for its operation to make sense some knowledge of that science is necessary. By trying to place your story within the realm of "it could happen to you!" you agree to that realm's rule sets, and consequently any deviation from them is seen as a reason to question it.
Continuing with the comparison, think about what the potion/drug might cause. Body shrinkage? Impossible with the way that biology and physics works, so the "magic potion" is the only reasonable explanation given the limitations of current science. Changing of bone structure/anatomic configuration/race/etc. all fall under the same rule, given that rewriting someone's DNA is a sure-fire way to kill them, not turn them into a five-three blonde bombshell who loves shopping and men when they were formerly a six-two hetero linebacker for the Saints. Perhaps this falls under your idea that magic is not expected to make sense while science fiction is, but that's because of that one little niggling catch in there: Science.
Take it or leave it. People don't like magic better, but neither are any of us professional writers who have weeks on end in which to do research into the underlying science behind what we write. Using magic eases the need for long-winded explanations that distract from the story, and minimizes reader complaints, allowing writers to get their stories across without having to worry as much about being nit-picked to death. Science fiction practically ASKS for this by insisting on the "science" element of its label, again, grounding it in real life and the rules thereof, and even then authors often get away with TREMENDOUS amounts of leeway concerning their transformation ideas. For a great example why not read any of the Caregivers universe stories, or even Marina Twelve's very good series "The Last Frontier." Both are examples of science fiction where the deep explanation of most of the science is largely taken for granted, with only occasional forays into deeper explanations. On the other hand, Maggie Finson's Heaven and Hell series, as well as its spinoffs, are decent examples of a series where magical transformations are featured with a (for the universe) relatively deep explanation of the powers behind it. For a non-TG example of the latter, check out Neil Gaiman's "American Gods;" an absolutely riveting read, and full of deep explanations to both spirituality and supernatural powers that are internally consistent.
In a lot of ways, magic and science fiction are two sides of the same coin, with many stories even crossing the borders between the two. Both have their uses and places, and both receive about equal use in TG fiction if you bother to look closely enough.
By the way -- I never said trying to understand the appeals of either was silly. What is silly is ignoring the answers because they aren't the one you were looking for. People have given plenty of reasons for the appeal of each and the popularity of each if you would care to collate the data you've been given, so your constant insistence that no explanation has been given indicates that you have ignored all data that doesn't seem like a good reason to you without considering the difference in other people's personalities and requirements. Pardon how I shall put this, but that is not being provocative -- it is being closed-minded to the differences in how other people think and feel. It may not line up for you. Okay. But for someone who seems to be seeking some logical explanation, to ignore the information before you is a highly illogical way to go about it.
Melanie E.
What IS magic
Magic is whatever can't be explained by physics and science. Magic can be considered a miracle too as both can't be explained by any thing.
May Your Light Forever Shine
May Your Light Forever Shine