http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2006/11/72174
You draw your own conclusions. Discuss.
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Comments
Castration at least. (A retraction)
And they should pay for them. I do not want an intact male in the bathroom with me.
Khadijah
(((( Oops, another sentence structure problem, sorry! I meant that the medical system should pay for at least the castration to start. Later, maybe we can push them to do the whole thing. ))))
I am terribly sorry about posting this earlier; what was I thinking ? Wallah !!! After having been out for 6 years, I had totally forgotten how important it is for a new T woman to be able to use the women's. I won't blame you if some of you take a good long time to cool off in your anger toward me.
Thank you
For your grace and understanding.
GR by ID? Yes, yes, YES!
"If people can switch genders in the eyes of the government with only some documentation from a doctor, will fewer feel the need for surgery?
It's just my opinion, but yes. Reassigning gender by changing the M to an F? Or F to M? Bravo, NYC and Spain!
From a lifetime of talking to friends (I know almost a hundred transsexuals, I'm amazed to discover) and reflecting on my own experiences, being who you are - being seen for your true self in day-to-day life - is what makes most people happy.
More even than surgery.
Here's my thinking:
Looking like other girls down there is great. Sex is good any which way. But girls with different-appearing genitalia are still girls. So many of us obsess about surgery to the exclusion of everything else, as if people related to us based on what's completely hidden under our clothes.
They don't. They relate to us, look at us, talk to us, hire us, teach us, learn from us... based on what's NOT hidden.
The hard thing for transsexuals in our society, the important important thing, isn't having the "wrong" genitals.
It's not being seen as the girls you are.
Michelle
New Jersey...
My drivers license has the "F" on it these days... What did it take? A form filled out/signed by my doc. (One of my blogs shows a picture of the license - with the name strategically changed... That little bit hasn't changed.)
Is the surgery still important to me? VERY MUCH so... I've wanted ever since I knew it could happen. However, it's EXPENSIVE, and I have to justify my happiness against what the family can do with the same money...
As far as I'm concerned I'm not changing my gender. It's been the same all along... I'm only correcting a long standing error.
My BC - that'll take some form of surgery (the amount apparently depends on which judge you go in front of out in CA)...
As to the issue on "MEN in the ladies room" bit... I can't see very many being willing to go through all that's needed to get a doc to sign off on changing the marker... To be a voyeur (or worse)... I think we'd be more likely to have an issue with some other lady in the restroom - than some guy in a dress.
But, again, I suspect the likelihood of the process being abused by someone like that is very remote... And, any guys likely to do that - wouldn't bother getting the fake ID... They'd just do it without the ID.
I think that making it easier to correct the marker is a good thing! I was floating on air - driving home - with my new DL... And, still get a warm fuzzy feeling when I look at it. (No, not the photo, LOL, the marker!)
Hopefully more states will follow the lead to simpler processes to correct paperwork.
Now, if only my transition goes smoothly - and my transition at work doesn't result in problems, so I can fix my name (& pay for another DL... LOL).
Anne
Agreed
It keeps out those folks who merely do it on a lark. Sorry but a non-hormonally transitioned and/or non-castrated male is not female, woman yes, but not female.
Kim
Why not?
For tens of thousands of years, that's what people did. FtM transsexuals can transition with minimal surgery, if any -- which is why we have male mothers these days -- and there's an attorney in Texas who transitioned by redefining his penis as hypertrophied foetal tissues and to hell with anyone who says different.
One has to admire chutzpah.
Why is it that former males are so "icky" that they have to undergo surgical cleansing of their icky parts, but former females are okay no matter what they do?
Le Chevalier d'Eon got along fine without surgery, and so can anyone.
Le Chevalier d'Eon
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Gotta love attorneys
"and there's an attorney in Texas who transitioned by redefining his penis as hypertrophied foetal tissues and to hell with anyone who says different"
In 94 this same individual wanted me to join his merry band of marchers in the NYC pride parade, they were going to lay down in the middle of the route at some point, stop the whole NYC Pride Parade and stage a protest to make a point- f'ing moron, all he would accomplish is to irritate a lot of people. I marched up Broadway with my friends and had a great time. Why do all the nutjobs want to be our spokespeople? Please don't claim to represent us as a community -YOU DON'T
Is it any wonder the sane ones go stealth into the woodwork? Who would want to be associated with people who have manipulated their version of reality to the point they are calling their penis "hypertrophied foetal tissues" or in his case lets just say "hey dude, it's your dick" because HE's just not getting it. May as well say he's a furry, goat, troll, Klingon or whatever, because he said so and to hell with anybody who says different, right?
If it's what's between
the legs that matters, and only that, then there are no transgendered people in the world anyway. Period.
I don't think, there is a dichotomy here of any sort, nor is misandry going to add much to the discussion
No cut, so sorry
The line is surgery, if you can't cross it then don't claim you own it.
spokesperson
Oh, some people get to speak for all and some don't (from you comment above). Those who you agree with get a voice, others don't. Not all have you wealth or health or definitions either. But it is all your line to draw; you get to decide who is "real" and who isn't. How nice. For you.
No, thank you. I think each individual human gets to be treated as a human individual.
Total agreement
Both with the quote and your statement; I'm all for everybody getting treated as a human individual.
My 2p worth...
I can understand the arguments on both sides of the equation, but after mentally evaluating various scenarios, I come down on the 'pre-surgery' side.
Why? As long as the person concerned can demonstrate this is something they're serious about (e.g. starting a RLT), and aren't just doing it on a whim, then why not? As the article says, surgery is expensive - besides which, the end results would be seen by very few.
The main argument against seems to be a hypothetical risk of someone making inappropriate contact with genetic females in public conveniences. While legally only those who are officially the same gender as the pictogram on the door are allowed to enter, in reality no-one's going to perform spot ID checks on the door, so anyone who looks female would be allowed in female conveniences, regardless of whether the gender on their ID documents is 'M' or 'F'. Female conveniences are 100% stalls, so nobody else in the room would see anything untoward. Anyway, have you heard of any cases where a female has been assaulted by a male in a convenience? They're far more likely to be assaulted outside the room.
The other potential stumbling block is marriage, with the conservative "between a man and a woman" lobby being very prominent in many countries. Well, if the legislators drew their administrative areas into the 21st century and allowed two people in love to marry, regardless of their official gender.
As for taxes / allowances / pensions, just get rid of gender discrimination altogether (e.g. in the UK, the official retirement age for females is 60, for males 65).
As I said above, as long as the person concerned can demonstrate that they've made a lasting commitment (not necessarily through reconfiguration of their genitalia) to live as their chosen gender, then why not?
There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't...
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
Agreed.
Out of simple curiosity, which toilet would the "must be surgery" people suggest that someone on their RLT use?
Apparently...
Apparently, they believe it's the one to which their existing genitalia grants them access to... Though, at least one of those who appeared against it has retracted - upon recollection of her RLT...
Actually, the thing I've most often heard done in some companies (that make a distinction) on an employee's transition at work is the provision of rest rooms known to be used by the transgendered individual, and optional by the rest of the target gender. That is, the trans person can use a restroom designated for the target gender. All know this individual may be using this (these) restrooms. There are also restroom(s) provided for that gender that the trans individual cannot use.
Not an ideal solution... But, I don't think there is one - that will satisfy everyone.
Anne
>> the dangers of rape
There are no locations where a woman is completely safe from rape, and in fact an American soldier was assaulted by a British soldier in a portable toilet a few years ago in Kuwait. He was convicted at court martial, as I recall, but then he wasn't presenting as a woman, the latrine in question was just a handy place out of public view.
In California, there's no State law against men in women's facilities or vice versa, so the only real problem is outrage on the part of "legitimate" users. I've "liberated" men's facilities in theatres myself, and most male "customers" were fairly coöperative once the situation was put to them calmly and with an appeal to their innate sense of chivalry. Most men are quite nice, actually, or at least nonplussed.
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
*sigh* The one thing I miss
*sigh* The one thing I miss about life pre-transition is that back then no one worried about my genitalia other than me.
These sound like welcome plans and is progress for many people denied such rights now, although the article is admittedly a little blinkered about the wider world. From the UK perspective this is actually a bit behind the times and not uncharted territory and there are several other countries that have similar rules. As long as there are some safeguards I have no problem with it - i.e. individuals can prove their seriousness and that they are under appropriate medical/psych care, living full time, etc.
I've spent the last few years saying what's between my ears determines who I am, not what's between my legs. IMHO, that holds true pre or post-op and particularly for f-t-m's with the limited and expensive surgical options open to them. So it would be difficult for me to say otherwise - not that I would. I know there are groups that would never consider me to be a woman because of that pesky 'Y' in my genetic make-up regardless of the surgeries I've had or how I look but I've always considered that their problem not mine.
Articles such as the one on the link will hopefully create the discussion in which falsehoods and misconceptions can be challenged and concerns discussed and assuaged. I think the more the wider public understand the truth about GID the better things will be for us all. That being said, I might be a bit of an idealist.
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
I'm a bit disappointed
Seeing a number of the comments on this blog.
While I do plan to eventually have the surgery to be fully female -- when I can afford it -- I don't see that as the defining "male/female" characteristic. Rather, I see what's between my ears as what matters, not what's between my legs.
I'm all for allowing gender/sexual identification to be by choice. While there are risks, as there is with anything, in this case I believe the benefits outweigh them. Besides, I don't know about everyone else, but I know a hell of a lot more men who would be on their best behavior in the women's restroom than I can say the other way around.
Or, there's a way to look at this that fits well within the primary context of this site. When you read a story where the main character is experimenting with their gender, whether they plan on transitioning or not, do you expect them to use the men's restroom? If so, what do you think would happen to them if they did? And if not, why is it okay in literary fiction but not in real life?
On the other side, I can understand being nervous about "guys in the girls' room." The idea of someone being able to spy on you during one of your most private activities, or being somewhere that is somewhat forbidden territory, can be scary, or feel like an invasion of space. However, the number of guys who would do that kind of thing is smaller than one might think, the number who could get away with justifying it even less, and the number who wouldn't get caught out, well, I'm sure the transgender population far outweighs them, does it not? And what about same sex voyeurs? They can do whatever they merry well please, and it's okay because they're the same sex? The so called marks of perversion aren't limited to the male members of society, after all.
Melanie E.
Thank you
I was keeping it short, but you brought out my thoughts exactly. We have rub-down searches by security at work. No woman would ever be searched by a man, and searching women is far more invasive, but there are some very, very 'out' lesbians working there. They are searching--touching intimately--women every day.
Thw word 'misandry' has been used. Just because I have issues with my birth 'gender' doesn't mean I have issues with that gender per se.
In the girls' room
I think one of the major problems is not so much spying but the fact that what goes on in a male toilet and what goes on in a female toilet are basically mysterious to the other lot.
Aside from what we see in the movies, most normal persons of either (standard) gender have little clue about what happens, except that they know different customs apply, and this understandably makes them nervous.
In addition, both sides try to enforce their own customs on others who enter such places, if not explicitly then by indirect methods. Equally, both sides probably have some kind of curiosity about what happens elsewhere but in the main I guess it's mostly rumour.
I think it's only TG people who find out how the other half lives, and they have to do it the hard way. Any slip and you're bodily pitched out the door. Real Life Test indeed! No wonder toilets/restrooms/bathrooms/etc feature strongly in TG stories.
Penny
You can smell it!
Please, let's keep this in a light tone. :) I have not been where a Man has "been" in a public restroom in a few (thinking, smell the smoke) um years. One thing I can say for sure is that the Men's smells very different than the women's. I used to think it was because they did not actually clean the Men's, but now I realize that it must be the Albumin (oxidized testosterone) ???
Having been raised on a farm, I know that Bulls (intact males) can smell a cow in heat for a mile. And, when he does ... yes, well I have seen a Stalion kick the side of a barn out to get at a mare.
Hopefully, human males do not kick the sides of the bedroom in to get at the female; at least not usually. LOL
I don't know where I was going with this ...
I need to go take care of the recycling. Maybe it will clear my head.
Khadijah
But should they be mysterious?
What would be so bad about men understanding what goes on in the women's room, or women in the men's? And are things really THAT different? I mean, yes, there are differences, but are they really that important?
I was raised a male, but I grew up sharing a bathroom with both my mom and my little sister. If it's certain elements of the biological elements of the two that are the problem, I don't see why both sides wouldn't want to understand their differences. If it is more of a problem with the "rules" of such places, well, society is always trying to challenge the so-called rules of what is deemed acceptable.
I've never been to one, but I have heard of several clubs in New York, and other states/countries, where the bathrooms in the facilities are unisex. And you know what I've heard about them? That most of the people who used them found the system perfectly adequate, and had no major problems adjusting.
Melanie E.
Arbitrary Criteria
The "solutions" available to relatively wealthy citizens of "The West," not to forget Iran, in recent times don't begin to cover the history of transgendered people in the world.
In antiquity, and in many areas even today, none of these heroic interventions are possible, yet transgendered, lesbian, and gay people existed.
Native American "Two-Spirit" people
We'wha, a Zuni Woman of Power
Kaúxuma Núpika, a Kootenai man
In most compassionate societies, the people who inhabit the boundaries between the everyday world and the realm of spirits, between masculinity and femininity, are viewed as valuable emissaries, interpreters who may access more of the Universe than is accessible to the less spiritually-gifted.
Shamanic Power
It does a disservice to those who have gone before, to those living in poverty, and to those for whom the needs of family outweigh their own desires, to assume that having a high-limit credit card is a necessary precursor to living the life one is called to live.
Cheers,
Puddin'
Compassion is sometimes the fatal capacity for feeling what it is like to live inside somebody else's skin. It is the knowledge that there can never really be any peace and joy for me until there is peace and joy finally for you too.
--- Frederick Buechner
Compassion is not religious business, it is human business, it is not luxury, it is essential for our own peace and mental stability, it is essential for human survival.
--- Tenzin Gyatso, the Dalai Lama
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style