Thoughts on Femdom

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I had planned to write this post anyway, but Diana’s comment to my last blog really spurred me on. So this blog contains both a response to Diana and more general comments.

Diana notes that Phillip blackmails Michael into becoming Sara by threatening to take away his business, which is an important chunk of their work. This simply isn’t true. In fact, when Michael brings it up, Rebecca makes it clear that Phillip never said a word about dropping Mind Games (R and M's business). More than a few people have now made the same mistake, something I find quite fascinating because it shows how many people read their expectations instead of the actual text (which is why you're supposed to get someone else to proofread your stories).

If you go in thinking forced fem or femdom, you might expect Phillip to blackmail Rebecca and Michael, and the fact that some people misread it shouldn’t be surprising, though it is disappointing. The only reason I stuck it in there was so people wouldn't wonder about it.

In October 2001 I did an analysis of the first 1900 stories posted on Crystal’s Storysite (What We Read — Our favorite stories and what the say about us — it’s quite interesting and as far as I know the only quantitative analysis of TG story content out there). Among other things, I analyzed the femdom content, and it does indeed represent a major story type. Among the top stories poseted there at the time (by hits) somewhere between 40-60% involved Femdom and 40% its evil cousin humiliation.

Given that, I guess an author should expect people to be looking for it either to savor it or avoid it. I failed to understand this and apparently wrote a story beginning so similar to the femdom prototype that it got labeled as such by some.

I hope that Chapter 4 starts to really clarify what this story is about, and all this discussion of femdom will fade away in importance. In fact the only reason that it is important to me is that it turns off some readers, and I, as an author, don’t want to lose them.

What do you think?

Comments

From what I remember

the dinner is supposed to be more of a business dinner no strings attached.I think Rebecca may have pushed the idea but it wasn't forced.Michael is a crossdresser and has gone to transgender conventions previously so I don't see the forced fem argument.I'm not really into forced fem or crossdresser storys but from what I've read I think it's a good story.I look at forced fem as diapers and crinolines,bondage without escape words and forcing someone to be feminine in general.Some people enjoy that subject matter who am I to deny them that?The only subject to me that is strictly taboo is anything involving pedophilia.I have read one story here that I thought was that wrapped up in a false facade and surprisingly no one complained about that.So I wouldn't let your critics get you down.Amy

I have to be careful ...

... because I've read the whole story and I'm not allowed to divulge the ending on pain of death. Not that I would want to spoil anyone's reading enjoyment.

This isn't the first time Kelly Ann has written a story that starts out as an apparent fem-dom saga. The curious and those who wish to be hugely entertained should try 'The Boy Nanny' - I think it's posted over at FM. The only truly fem-dom story she's been involved with is 'Jaqui' which she wrote with Karen Ann Somerfield and that has a lot of story elements that Karen Ann rather then Kelly Ann regularly revisits. Both those are substantial reads and are differently treated.

IMO 'Symphony' is primarily about the stresses a deep relationship suffers when one partner finds it necessary to change who they are. Or, perhaps more accurately, to assert who they've always been but suppressed. Right through the story the reader is never really sure what the outcome might be. Both sides in the relationship make mistakes. Kelly Ann explores the mistakes and the responses to them. The final answer always remains in doubt. That's what makes it an entertaining read. It may even be an informative read but, fortunately, I don't have the sort of problems that Sara and Rebecca do.

Geoff

A response

ok, let's dissect this, but first, for reference, let's include my original post.

I had planned to write this post anyway, but Diana’s comment to my last blog really spurred me on. So this blog contains both a response to Diana and more general comments.

Kelly,

You are a writer, of that there is no doubt. I would even say you are very good at your craft (much better than I am at any rate). And I will readily admit I have only read the first two chapters, but, I must respectfully disagree when you say,

Unfinished Symphony is not a femdom story.

(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminization_%28activity%29 Not work safe)

The protagonist is forced through coercive methods (blackmail of the company losing a client and emotional blackmail of her crying)) and not given much of a choice

You've humiliated me, and if you have to humiliate yourself to make up for it, then so be it," she said sharply.

Then there is the psychological aspect of the antagonist. First she lights into him with verbal abuse without a chance to respond then switshes it off and goes all innocence and light on him, thus psychologically unbalancing him and leaving him in a state of confusion. Follow this up with a little positive reinforcement of his hobby and you have a nice submissive for our dom's pleasure.

This is just my opinion, and I will stand by it. As you said, She is probably very frightened and perhaps a little afraid of this "other woman" that is coming between her and her husband. Will there be open resentment? Definitely! Will there be hostility? Yes, after all, she is trying to keep her husband and marriage intact. Selfish? Somewhat, but isn't that what life is about, selfishness? In the end, we all want to be able to produce progeny and give them all we can, and Rebecca is seeing those future wants and desires being stripped away. A sad and touching tale, more forced fem than femdom, for which I apologize for the earlier generalization.

Hugs
Diana

Diana notes that Phillip blackmails Michael into becoming Sara by threatening to take away his business, which is an important chunk of their work. This simply isn’t true.

You are indeed correct, I never said Phillip was the anagonist, you assumed this.

In fact, when Michael brings it up, Rebecca makes it clear that Phillip never said a word about dropping Mind Games (R and M's business). More than a few people have now made the same mistake, something I find quite fascinating because it shows how many people read their expectations instead of the actual text (which is why you're supposed to get someone else to proofread your stories).

Again, tecnically correct, but if your boss said the Director invited your department to a party at his yacht in 2 weeks, and everyone was encouraged to attend, would you tell him "sorry, I have to wash my hair that night"?

If you go in thinking forced fem or femdom, you might expect Phillip to blackmail Rebecca and Michael, and the fact that some people misread it shouldn’t be surprising, though it is disappointing. The only reason I stuck it in there was so people wouldn't wonder about it.

And yet again with the assumption of Phillip as the anagonist. Rebecca and Michael are the antagonist and protagonist, respectively. Has Phillip ever even asked Michael at this point in the story? (see the earlier response for the psychological games Rebecca is playing in my original reply)

In October 2001 I did an analysis of the first 1900 stories posted on Crystal’s Storysite (What We Read – Our favorite stories and what the say about us – it’s quite interesting and as far as I know the only quantitative analysis of TG story content out there). Among other things, I analyzed the femdom content, and it does indeed represent a major story type. Among the top stories poseted there at the time (by hits) somewhere between 40-60% involved Femdom and 40% its evil cousin humiliation.

I would very much love to read it, as it most likely correct for that site. But it is not an overall barometer for the whole of TG fictiondom. Heck, I would guesstimate the numbers might even be a bit low in some areas due to miscategorization of some of the stories.

Given that, I guess an author should expect people to be looking for it either to savor it or avoid it. I failed to understand this and apparently wrote a story beginning so similar to the femdom prototype that it got labeled as such by some.

Ah, now we see what has happened. An unknowing subconscious influence perhaps? :) (j/k lol)

I hope that Chapter 4 starts to really clarify what this story is about, and all this discussion of femdom will fade away in importance. In fact the only reason that it is important to me is that it turns off some readers, and I, as an author, don’t want to lose them.

What do you think?

And I as a reader, hope that you keep writing. Just because you don't write this story towards my individual taste, does not men that I will not read anything else by you, just not any more of this story. You have a talent with the written word, far better than 90% of the authors out there and I would love to read more by you, just not this one :( you can bring out the emotions in readers, but sometimes, just as in a story, those emotions may not be ones you like to see. Do any of us truly love what we see in the mirraor all the time? Please keep writing and maybe someday I will see you on the NYT list.

Hugs
Diana

Diana, I don't get it

Diana,

"And I will readily admit I have only read the first two chapters. . ."

As a scientist, I have to say, your sample size is too small. Read the current chapter, My Date with Phillip (in which there is a quote from Elanor Roosevelt about self-respect), or if you can't handle that ,then the next chapter, Sara's Got Game, in which Sara vanquishes feeble men.

I don't think it's fair to judge a 75K word story on ten or twenty lines in the first chapter.

Really, do you want to be right, or enjoy a good read?

KA

Stubborness

or pigheadedness, whichever you prefer, describes my state most of the time. I stand by my principles and yet try to keep an open mind. Maybe I have been burned too many times on stories, but I have started seeing it as an issue of "is my time better spent reading a story that feels the same as the last 20 stories in this genre, or spent reading more on the latest medical advances for breast cancer testing?" I just found out last week that my paternal grandmother has it in both breasts; my maternal brandmother died from it 4 years ago. Statistically speaking, I would be better prepared for eventual breast cancer than reading another story that feels like it is of a certain genre. Sorry if it wasn't the answer you wanted, but now you know. I have been using humor as a shield against the fears of a possible future. I can "handle that." And above all else, I value integrity and honesty in everything I do now, so I don't pull punches. If an answer might hurt, please don't ask.

As to reading the current chapters, I don't think I will at this time and not because I "can't handle that," but rather because I don't wish to tske the time I could devote to other tasks. I was disappointed with the title of your next chapter as it implies Sara will be the next dominant female (feeble men?) Is there some male bashing I am missing here? As far as self respect goes, I think I have enough of that now, at least more than I had 4 years ago when I tried suicide. That is a dark subect to write on...

Take care and be safe,
Diana

You can lead a horse's behind to water but you can't make it think!

I agree with GeekyDee

Her comment pretty much covers my opinion also. When looking back at the reply I made to Angela Rasch's comment on Chapter 3, I quoted the following from Chapter 1:

She then looked back up at me, sadness in her eyes. "He wants you, my dear. He wants to take you on a date."

"What?" I squeaked again. "I'm not gay. I can't go out with him."

"That's just what I told him. He claims that he only wants you as a companion for the evening. Consider it a business dinner." Her voice was starting to quiver a bit and tears glistened in her eyes.

"Rebecca, this is crazy. I can't just..."

"Yes… you… can," she said firmly, clipping off each word so they were perfectly clear. "Women do this all the time. They go out with clients, behave like the guy is terribly interesting, and if he’s been nice give him a quick peck on the cheek at the end of the evening. And that’s that."

I sat there staring at her stupidly. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. My wife was insisting I go out on a date with a male client, and a friend of mine at that. "I can't," I said again.

"You will," she replied instantly, raising her voice. "Your little," and she said ‘little’ in a way that let me know she meant big, "secret has gotten out, embarrassing me to my core. How do you think I felt when he showed me that picture?"

Sounds like blackmail to me, or extortion. Either way, he is being forced to do something he doesn't want to do, dress as a woman and go out on a date with a man.

So while I didn't specify his wife as being the one who was compelling him, I thought it was obvious. It pretty much seems to me that she is running her own agenda, and is either taking advantage of the client's knowledge or may have even instigated it. After all, she orders him to dress and go out on the date after he says no.

And thinking I might have been too hasty, I took a look at Chapter 4 just now. Let's just say I stand by my earlier opinion.

Sorry,
Karen J.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
Janis Joplin


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

I give up.

Karen, Diana,

Not really, but I already admitted that the beginning sounded like the set-up for a femdom story. As my kids used to say (as if it made everything ok again), "My bad."

But I think you're missing the point here. I said it's not a femdom story because I know that the so-called dom doesn't spend the rest of the story manipulating the poor fem. I think the saying about letting your little bird go to see if it comes back to you is far more predictive of what this story is about than anything else. And it applies to both Michael and Rebecca.

It would be too bad if people didn't read more of the story because of the beginning, a huge mistake I made with New Job. But that was a story about damaged people recovering and and learning to live in a healthy way. This story is about healthy people coping with a difficult situation. Actually Geoff said it really well, so please check out his comment, above.

KA

JJ or KK?

Apologies for the thread hijack, but I cannot do this by PM...

Janis Joplin sang (recorded) "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" ('Me and Bobby McGee') but the words were written by Kris Kristofferson (and recorded a while before JJ's version).

Xi

First recording...

erin's picture

...was actually by Roger Miller, I believe. I mentioned this before, legend has it that Kris was thinking of Janis when he wrote the male version of the song, and he was friends with both her and Roger Miller, two very self-destructive personalities. Janis more or less made the words her own by living and dying by them.

- Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Freedom

Janis' hoarse voice still echoes in my mind. And I still have Big Brother and the Holding Company records in my basement.

Whoever first wrote it, she owned it.

And she broke my heart when she killed herself.

I agree

I would say that was "her" song and she made it what it is. On another piece great music, I still cringe when I hear George jones do "The Rose." Only Bette Middler has done it justice to my ears :) I wonder how Janis would have done?

Diana

what is written

kristina l s's picture

Is not always what is read, or so it seems. Yet there is enough ambiguity in your tale to make people speculate. Especially on Rebecca's motivation. Even after the date there are enough pointers to make a reader question her. But then that is part of reading the story is it not? To see where things go and maybe to check and see if your guesses were right. It may not be femdom as you say, but it is still not clear to the reader whether it is a loving story.

The first story I posted here almost 2 years ago shares a similar theme in a sense. I readily admit part of the motivation was to do an anti Vickie Tern story, because hers bothered me. She's not alone in that of course, she just does it better than most. She and I discussed this, so I'm not talking behind anyones back and I found her to be a very thoughtful and intelligent person. I have also read 'Jaqui' that Geoff mentioned and that is a tough read. There are others.

As to pleasing the reader. Well I'm not sure it's a good idea to try. You just have to write it as is and hope someone gets it. I followed up on my story and people who had never commented before decided to tell me I'd ruined a good story, so I'm not sure the idea of worrying about the audience does any good. Of course we all want praise and even a, not bad but, can be a good thing.

You write well, but it won't be everybodies. So it goes. we're all in that same boat.

Kristina

Why you should read 'Symphony'

A few weeks ago we went to see 'The Pianist' at our local cinema. It's a harrowing film about the Warsaw ghetto and how one man miraculously survived. It's based on a book written by the main protagonist, the eponymous pianist, shortly after the war. We were both spellbound the whole time. Did we enjoy it? I'm not sure but we left the cinema with something to think about on the walk home.

'Symphony' is not as harrowing as 'The Pianist' in any way but it shares the characteristic of being worth the effort to read as the film was worth watching. It isn't fluff; it isn't one-handed fiction; it isn't, except in a very loose way, fem-dom. It is a love story; it is a description of the struggles and compromises two people have to negotiate in order for their relationship to work; it is entertaining and, lastly, it is well written. For me that last is a necessary though not complete requirement. It's the complete package that makes it worthwhile and, I believe, it really is enjoyable - no doubt.

The whole point of fiction is to describe change. For that reason alone it's unwise to judge a complete story on the strength of a few line in an early chapter. Change is all. It's just how the change affects the characters that remains in doubt until the end. Isn't that how it should be? The only thing a brief glance at early chapters will tell you is how well is it written. I don't think that's an issue here.

Read and enjoy.

Geoff