Why don't I get magic? Of all of the stories I read those that depend on magic are the ones that don't press my buttons and that includes everything from BC stories to Harry Potter -I couldn't finish the first book.
The fact that magic is so popular means that I'm the odd one out (guess I already know I'm odd otherwise I woudn't be here.) But Why?
My headline comes from a review in a UK magazine of the latest Harry Potter film where the reviewer went with her son who became very bored on the grounds that "if its magic and anything can happen, it doesn't really count." Magic is cheating.
This is not a blast against those who write magic stories - they are obviuosly very popular (and if you're JK Rowling -very rewarding!) it just me wondering are there any others out there who don't get magic -or am I just a lone sad retired scientist?
Cindybelle
Comments
Magic
Some people just don't like magic, for whatever reason. Some people have trouble imagining it, some people feel it's cheating, and some just prefer realistic stories. I bet if you really sit down and think about it, you can figure out why you don't like magic. I love the use of magic in stories, especially TG stories, but I didn't like Harry Potter. For me, I tend to not like magic when it's silly, or funny, or cute.
I'm with the kid
I don't hate stories with magic as long as they are consistent, understandable, and have defined limits. Unfortunately, too many magic stories seem to pull a magic spell out of thin air, so to speak, and voila! something unexpected happens that the reader didn't have a clue could happen the moment before. The kid is right -- it's unfair, and a little boring, even, since there was no tension in the "real" sense, no way to anticipate or logically predict or think through the outcome.
I haven't read any of the Harry Potter books, so I can't comment on that, but even in the "Wheel of Time" series by Robert Jordan, that sort of thing occurs occasionally, and, I have to say, it's annoying when it happens. The Dark Lord screws up the weather of the entire planet? Let's find the Bowl of Winds that someone saw in a premonition in a chest somewhere that's been lost until -- just now. Male magic is totally whacked and makes men mad who use it? Let's use these mysterious power statues to straighten it out -- who cares if nobody thought to do that for thousands of years? Ugh.
It's not to say that a gimmick can't work if it's brought in consistently and responsibly, but no magical surprises, please. It's why I prefer sci-fi. A well-written sci-fi story can be persuasive. :)
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Add-on edited in: I should have said that I prefer sci-fi in general over pure magic stories because sci-fi generally takes greater care to make the universe more consistent and its rules predictable -- and please don't get me started on the blurring of sci-fi and fantasy. :)
This principle does not always hold true, of course: some sci-fi is dreadfully inconsistent and some magic stories are quite nice and hold up well within their own set of boundaries. Glen Cook's "Black Company" series is well done. The "Lord Darcy" and "Garrett Files" are very well done, too, in part I think because magic is distinctly secondary to the plot and the mundane protagonists are well aware of its dangers and limitations. Terru Goodkind's "The Sword of Truth" I'd place about half-way because his magical rules are somewhat undefined and, to my mind, excessively complex. Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, while engaging, is mediocre in his magical consistency, with annoying magical wonders popping up as needed to carry the plot forward.
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
What about science fiction?
How do you feel about science fiction stories?
As just one example, compare communication technology now to where we were just 10 years ago. Cellular phones and the internet were just starting to get popular. Most people didn't have them, now it's common. Go back 20 years and our lifestyles now would seem like science fiction.
As Arthur C. Clark said,
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Aardvark is right about magic stories, there has to be consistent rules for them to work. Just like science fiction stories need to extrapolate current science to feel right. Magic stories may be more difficult to write convincingly because the author must make up their rules of magic from scratch. Where with a SF story the basic rules are already in place.
I live in the real world, "realistic" stories do nothing for me, I want to read abut the fantastic.
Maybe your threshold for "suspension of disbelief" is higher than that of people like myself who enjoy magic stories.
Mr. Ram
Not just JK
I just read that Daniel Radcliffe got a $50 million dollar paycheck for playing Harry in the latest movie. Add that to what he has undoubtedly made for the previous movies and he is one wealthy seventeen-year-old. (EDIT: Ooops read that wrong - he's getting $50 million for the last two movies.)
I think, as Mr. Ram says, that for those of us who like magic/fantasy type stories, it's all about the fantasy. Things can happen in them that are impossible in our mundane world. A boy can become a girl in every way, and even if it's an involuntary change we get to experience our fantasy through the character. SciFi is the same, because we can imagine technologies that don't exsist. All are susceptible to abuse, and should be carefully crafted by the author to provide some structure defining what is and isn't possible - even if the author is the only one who knows all the details.
Scott
Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of--but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.
Lazarus Long - Robert A. Heinlein's 'Time Enough for Love'
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
Anything Can Happen
There are different sorts of magic stories; these are the sorts of categories I usually divide fantasy and magic stories into:
High Fantasy - Like "Lord of the Rings" by Tolkien. The magic in such stories is part of the strange culture you get to explore with intense and complex characters. A lot of High Fantasy is built on the mythic-sort of stories described by Joseph Campbell. Magic is integral to story but usually incidental to plot. Much like Space Opera, Western, or Historical Romance in tone. Sword and Sorcery, like the Conan stories by Robert E. Howard, is usually a subdivision of this group.
Mundane Magic - This is a story with workday magics. Classic example is the Lord D'Arcy mysteries by Randall Garrett. This may verge on High Fantasy like in Lois McMaster Bujold's recent fantasy cycles or be a mostly invisible part of a mostly realistic world. Magic, while it may be important is more or less minor. Magic may drive the plot in these stories and usually does. Barbara Hambly is especially good at bridging this style with High Fantasy. Much like Hard Science SF or Mystery fiction. Lots of Horror stories fall into this category but just as many into the one below.
Wild Magic - Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" and Roger Zelazny's Amber novels are good examples of this style, though they verge on High Fantasy as well. Almost anything can happen because the plot drives the magic. Another example is the Narnia books which look on the surface to be High Fantasy but are not. The Farce or Picaresque Novel are close correspondent types in regular fiction, and SF has the corresponding Weird Science category. Also, most Horror stories share some elements with this when they aren't more like the second category. A lot of current series that look on the surface to be category 2 actually belong here, like Jim Butcher's wizard detective stories.
The list above is incomplete, I can think of dozens of stories that don't fit into any of the above and lots that don't fit well. :)
For people who don't like magic in stories, I recommend Randall Garrett's Lord D'Arcy stories. They have forensic magic in the same way that many mysteries have forensic science. They are fair mysteries, meaning the writer does not cheat by using information unavailable to the reader to resolve the puzzles; read carefully and you'll know what you need to know. :)
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Harry Potter And The Magical Mystery Tour
A true child of the sixties, I can tell you there's magic in things that grow in ditches.
I loved the first three books in the Potter series, but felt the story got bogged down after that in things that children that age couldn't possibly handle. I'm surprised by those who condemn the books because "they lack God." Obviously those who say such things should read a few writings by Joseph Campbell. Potter is a classic myth and thus does include God. Maybe not "the one true God" some would want.
Most TG-magic stories are like most TG-CD stories, not well plotted, shallow charaters, and completely void of scenery. Some magical authors seem to think we should be mesmerized by the M-A-G-I-C and allow a weak deus ex machina to carry the day. Most CD authors think they only need to describe the garments in exquisite (excruciating??) detail -- and we will love their story.
One of the most compelling stories I've read on BC was a first effort by a writer-who-shall-remain-nameless-by-his-request. It happened to be a magic story which used outstanding characterization to grip the reader. That writer could write in any genre. But since he's nameless, you'll never know. All I'll say is his name leads most alphabetical listings.
Stories can have great scenary, like Dr. Zhivago, great characters, like Dickens', or great plots like O'Henry's. I'm surprised you didn't like the first Potter books as Rowling is a triple threat with fanciful locations, outstanding plot, and memorable characters. Maybe it helped that my mother's name was Hermione, although Rowling pronounces it wrong.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Different does not = Bad
Cindybelle does not seem the sort who means what I am saying. But, I mean what I am saying; I find it ironic that folks of this, of all communities, cannot get past the idea that someone who is, or sees things differently than you do, is BAD! Hey, anyone can be a disaggreeable asshole, but you have to practice as I do.
I don't see choice of writing genre as something worth debating. I personally prefer "perverse quasi real life". Yes, I invented that, it's like "irrational exuberance" or something. Magic and Sci-fi are great venues and I have read a ton in each. They just don't serve me, personally, for my TG needs, so I don't write or read them much here. For Randa and Aardie I make exceptions, how else could Aardie be carried off as a luscious bridesmaid to be ravaged by...well, I wax tawdry and Aardie is blushing. :)
My point is that, this, well, we live in a glass house, can we drop the stones? That was not a TG joke, seriously...hmmm.
Gwen
Gwen Lavyril
Gwen Lavyril
Not bad, no stones thrown
Gosh Gwen,
I didn't see anyone bashing one kind of story or the other. This has been a very civil discussion.
Where do you see any one's choice of genre put down in this conversation? We've been discussing our own reasons for preferring particular kinds of stories, examples of authors who write our favorites well and comparisons.
Do you see something in this thread that I don't?
Mr. Ram
Dear Mr. Ram.
Gosh Mr.Ram, I did not see anyone bashing anyone either. I thought that I was partaking in the discussion also. Since, the opening topic is "baddie magic", and opinons were expressed that lead to others, perhaps you should go back to the top and reread. They were well stated and considered opinions but we keep going back to the same old stuff. I only meant to make my feelings upon that clear.. Mr.Ram? :) Yeah, right.
Gwen
Gwen Lavyril
Gwen Lavyril
OK
Gwen,
It sounds like we are in agreement then. It just wasn't clear in your initial post.
Mr. Ram
Just a clarification Gwen.
Just a clarification Gwen. The heading "Danger, baddie, magic.." was the lead- in to the magazine review I mentioned. It was meant to convey that the plot of the film was a series of incidents repeated in that sequence : danger -its a baddie- lets do some magic. ie it was formulaic.
Which I suppose is my feeling on a lot of magic fiction - I accept the point, well made by several commentators, that if the magic is used in the context of a well developed story - which to me means the writer taking the time and effort to develop some depth in the characters before entering into fantasyland - then it can be a valid and effective means of driving the plot.
The reviewer also made the point that the only bit of the film that grabbed her was the start in Privet Drive with Harry's muggle family - believable characters (if nasty) as distinct from the plethera of heavyweight Brit actors, all overacting like h*ll in the remainder of the film. Looking back I find I felt the same about the first book.
That said , thanks everyone for a great discussion. I'll try again with some of the high graded magic stories mentioned.
Luv to all
Cindybelle
Cindy
Ok
Perhaps this is one of those times when the lack of tonality in email made what I wrote seem much more heavy handed than intended. If so, my apologies. My point was intended to convey my concern whenever a topic starts with "Why don't I get" such and such and it's related to some generic writing form. You notice that it went then to "some people just don't like" and after Erin's very interesting treatment of the use and types of magic in writing it went to "what about Sc-fi".
I am not critcising anyone's comments here either, they were all as I said before respectful and thought out, just examples of migration. Certainly it seems I failed that test so perhaps what I should have written was; "please remember how incindiary this genre stuff can get should it migrate further to TG," and left it at that.
Over sensitive? Perhaps, but if you have been through a few flame wars here and seen the hurt feelings and people just leaving you know the hairs on the back of my neck (no not my back, thank you) were standing. My intentions were good, my delivery rather sucked.
Sorry about that,
Gwen
Gwen Lavyril
Gwen Lavyril
Contexted Believability
Magic is a tool that allows perception to be shifted, both for the reader and by the author. It provides a framework for something unreal to be possible. Yet it does require a willingness by the reader to suspend disbelief.
I have been willing to enter into this pact with fantasy and sci fi authors for most of my life. They can be the God of their book's world and I will accept it. I have been pleased with the results.
Meanwhile real world stories are unable to modify my framework in which I will view their story. For it is also my world. This means, that for me, the author has a tougher believability test to pass.
Magic - what is it?
Some people believe that magic is something supernatural, something that happens because someone who is adept at the art of sleight of hand or sorcery can modify reality in one way or another. Others think that magic is the art of providing people with an imaginary precept that regardless of the possibility, people will buy into.
So magic could be the way that Authors can create somewhere that whether it exists or not, we the readers can identify with - because the author makes it believeable or at least, plausible.
Magic in the real sense of the word - like the production of a flower out of thin air without using deception; by waving a magic wand or something, has been about since well, forever and sometimes it's nice to step into that world. It's a convenient way to place a character into a situation that's out of his or her sphere of understanding, beyond their comprehension. Depending upon how it's done, it can be very entertaining.
Science fiction likes to use magic too in the way it can conjure up new worlds, new species, time travel, few of which exist and I for one find it difficult to comprehend how it is that the thought of grey or green men from other planets is any more believeable than someone being able to do things the rest of us can't with their minds or by waving a wand.
Magic is just another variety of the escapism that authors can create and in effect, we are all creating a piece of magic when we write something that others can identify with. I for one have read comments that say "I wish that had happened to me" and if it had, wouldn't it have been a magical experience?
Whether you like it or not, all fiction is magic. All fiction has about it, a spell that causes us to leave behind preconceptions for a while at least and place ourselves in a world which may or may not exist with characters who undergo things that endear us to them, repulse us and make us happy, sad, scared, horny, any or all of the above.
So before you say you don't believe in magic or don't like it, the spell is in each and every story and admittedly, it depends upon the ability of the author as to whether the spell works or not, or how well that spell works together with the topic, but all of them to one degree or another are magical.
Nick B
Rules of the game
Cindybelle,
I'm one of those who *love* magic and SF stories. But they should have rules and stay within those rules.
Stories without the element of magic or SF on this site are almost all either crossdressing or transitioning stories. Where you didn't "get" magic, I don't get crossdressing unless as part of a transitioning. As for transition stories: they can be nice because of the interpersonal relations aspect, but I find them too close to reality to really make me start dreaming.
There are some stories dealing with 'paranormal' stuff, like mindreading, mindcontrolling, mindswapping. How do you feel about those ? Do you consider them to be magic ?
As I said before, the problem with magic and SF is the rules. This is usually less of a problem with science fiction as most everyone seems to understand science needs to be based on rules, even if those rules are entirely fictional or perhaps even unknown. Many magic stories don't bother with defining clear rules. The plus side is that magic/SF makes it possible to create problems, solutions and rewards that are not possible without them. The problem you mention that "Magic is cheating" can be solved by having strict rules for what magic can and cannot do and what's needed to do it.
I've read a few stories where magic was made so powerfull and limitless that there wasn't much of an adventure left. In real life, it's a wonderfull thing to be able to solve all your problems by snapping your fingers. In a fictional setting, it results in a very boring story. I feel a story can only be worth reading if at least some of the people in it are 'living in interesting times'. As you no doubt know, that's a real life curse according the Chinese.
Since you're calling yourself a scientist, I assume that you don't object to science in stories ? You're probably also ok with some fictional progress in science resulting in SF ? Then why don't you consider magic to be an extremely advanced version of science ?
As a footnote: while I love magic stories, I do find Harry Potter very boring too.
Hugs,
Kimby
Hugs,
Kimby
HOPE ?
[email protected] Magic ,( I think ) Is just a word for hope . Those of us , who for one reason or another , are unwilling to acknowledge their true feelings , cling to that hope . The fantastical hope of finding THE lamp . The hope of finding Bikini Beach or Spells R Us . The hope of finding a UFO and indulging in it's Med Tech . The hope of being whole with out the bull scat . I do not know what lays beyond the grave . Some think they know but it is really only faith . If there is such a thing as reincarnation , then I want to come back as a Girl . I just hope I remember to be a lesbian . There are just to many things I do not want to think about .
Cavrider----Just another " Grunt."
Fear
I have to say that finding that lamp or Bikini Beach would be wonderful for me. I'm not so sure about Spells 'R US. That wizard has a dangerous sense of humour in my opinion.
Reincarnation has the bad part of not remembering your previous life. How can I be suitably grateful if I don't remember the pain I suffered before ? Besides, whoever decides on my next body might make me a FTM transsexual. That would probably be the most cruel way to grant me my current wish.
Hugs,
Kimby
Hugs,
Kimby