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Dear fellow readers:
I have a question regarding Comment Etiquette. I try and leave comments as often as I can. Most of my comments have been positive. Some have raised questions as to the interaction of the characters. Others have been part of discussions raised by others.
If I have to point out a spelling, grammer or continuity problem I PM the author. On occassion I have PMed an author and asked why they had included or written something that bothered me.
I do not remember ever leaving a truly negative comment, at least from my prospective. I do not remember sending a truly negative PM. Twice an author took exception to what I said in a comment In one case I could understand their consternation, in the other I think they mistook my me for someone else.
However, Today I read a story, that bothered me greatly. I wanted to write a comment, but if I did so, I would have been very negative, and castigated the author for writing what I perceive to be a very very negative attack on boys and men. I did not leave a comment because I perceive that that would be Improper conduct on my part.
If the story had been one of forced feminization I could understand it. If it was a "Bad" Boy to Good Girl, I could understand it. If the boy always wanted to be a girl then that is a common theme. If it showed the person instigating the change in a critical light I could understand it.
But this story was not like that. I will not give more detail because it would identify the story.
So the basic question is: Is it proper to write a critical or perhaps hostile comment? What are the limitations if any on such comments?
Saying that I should send a PM, does not address the problem, becuase confronting the author by telling her what I think, does not addrees the feeling that I should raise the negative feelings in a more public forum.
RAMI
Comments
That's a tough...
That's a tough question...
My opinion - based on the circumstances you describe - is the following:
1) If the categorization/description left no idea that such an attack might be possible, perhaps it might be worth talking to someone else to find out if your impression of the story was general or whether something in your experience is triggering your reaction. I know I've had cases like that. Something not intended to be very negative - and not taken by most to be negative - was felt as negative by me.
2) Consider a PM to the Author ASKING whether that was intended or if you were miss-interpreting something... (I've done the miss-interpreting myself, before.)
3) If you do PM your impressions, be very careful to comment on the STORY and not the author for writing such a story. The PM may not be welcome, but at least it's then - I think - within the rules of the site.
4) In general my observance here - Heavily critical PUBLIC comments, even when 100% accurate, are not considered acceptable.
And most importantly - think about it for a few days.
Regards,
Annette
On your point four
In general, my observations are that heavily critical public comments are about the commenter, not the story. So, yes, they do frequently get removed when I cannot stretch my understanding to conceive of them as having friendly intent.
Basically, an all negative comment with no positive points at all and more than two or three complaints has to convince me that it is thoughtful and well-intentioned. A few do, most don't.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Thank you...
Thank you for correcting my comment... I did mean to imply that the ones I'd seen had tended to be more critical of the person writing than what was written.
Yes, it IS possible to write a critical comment that doesn't attack the author... I've just not seen any here. I'm glad a few have managed to do that.
Angela
As an Author
I receive a number of comments that in general says "what a wonderful story." Although good for my ego, it does nothing to help me improve my writing. A "negative" comment that points out my poor word/grammar selection, shows what I missed, questions what a character does, or something else that is questionable is precious to me because I see where I can improve.
Writing is a craft that, hopefully, improves with time.
I follow some very simple rules
when commenting.
1. If I have nothing nice to say, I say nothing at all.
2. If a story "bothers" me or upsets me... refer to rule #1
3. I try VERY hard not to fall victim of the "You could have done this or that better and here's how." syndrome. After all _I_ didn't write the story so how could I know how to make a story better if I didn't know what the author had in mind when he/she wrote it?
4. I almost always kudo a story unless it is too badly written or doesn't meet certain requirements. I always pay attention to the keywords that precede a story and if I see one that doesn't trip my trigger, I don't click on it or read it.
5. I almost never inform an author of misspellings or misusages in phraseology. I don't appreciate it when someone does that to me, so I don't do it to others.
That's about it for me. There are a great many stories that don't appeal to me at all, but there is a place for everyone's particular tastes in our genre. Just because I might not like a story, doesn't mean that others won't like it either.
God knows, there are enough stories being written so that the ones I don't like, don't diminish my reading pleasure or the huge amount of stories there are out there.
Top Shelf is now, and has been for the past few months, the BIGGEST archive of TG related stories on the internet, surpassing even Fictionmania, which is no mean feat, considering that Erin is more choosy about what stories can be posted as regards content, whereas Fictionmania takes all comers, regardless of content.
I understand that there are many who invite critical comments. I don't. I prefer to hear and read good things about my stories. Yes, yes I know. I live in a fairyland where everything is sweet and cute and all is right with the world. I don't mind. It's nice and peaceful here.
Careful. Don't crush the flowers and happy bunnies as you leave. *giggle*
Hugs and love,
Catherine Linda MIchel
As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script.
Clarifications on content restrictions
I don't pre approve posts, FM does, so I'm actually less restrictive on content than FM.
In 14 years, a dozen or so stories have been removed for copyright violations, four for being such incredible format messes that I could not fix them and only two stories have been removed for content violations both being XXX rated descriptions of child rape.
FMs record is pretty close to that, from what I know.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Criticism or disagreement?
Rami
As an author I have always welcomed criticism that helps me improve as an writer, whilst the art of offering constructive criticism that is both supportive and kindly, whilst pointing out flaws in someone else's baby, is almost an art form in its own right!
However, from the tone of your PM above it sounds as if you wish to disagree with someone else's opinions/beliefs rather than how they write. I recall Erin offering some very clear guidelines on this a while ago in keeping with the BCTS ethos of 'a friendly place'.
Might I suggest you may wish to ask Erin for her opinion in a PM?
Persephone
Persephone
Non sum qualis eram
Been there, done that (once), got the T-shirt...
Be careful out there, because some people at the "friendly" site are more equal than others and can say all manor of hurtful things and be completely protected from any reply. The best thing to do is block it out. I commented on a story that I felt insulted every reader here and was scolded and my comment taken down. Frankly, it left me with a very bad taste in my mouth that hasn't quite gone away in 8 months.
So think hard before you commit anything to print, Because some who preach "happy, happy, nice, nice" can be very heavy handed. And sometimes the right to say things are asymmetrical depending on who's speaking.
If you don't have the stomach for an insult or high handed putdowns: Say nothing or try a PM, which is still a toss-up if the person PMed runs to Mama.
Once again, "Be careful out there!
Ole
We are each exactly as God made us. God does not make mistakes!
Gender rights are the new civil rights!
Generalize it
I suggest you write what you'd wanted to say as a comment in a blog, to put some distance between it and the story. And rather than making it about the story, make it about yourself. Say something like, "Has anyone else ever had a really visceral reaction to a story on here? I just read this piece that left me feeling really angry. I was surprised by how much it bothered me." and then perhaps get into specifics, but make sure that you keep the tone "there's something about me" and not "there's something about this story." That way you can help process this emotion by getting it out, without that author feeling specifically targeted.
Recommend You Browse Through FAQ's
The FAQ's have a number of threads on comments. Erin weighs in on many of them. She started the following one (linked) and is pretty clear regarding what is appropriate:
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/forum/26038/are-there-standard...
When a story creeps me out.
There are a couple stories that really hurt me deeply; bringing to life the terrors of old daemons. I plan to read them when they are finished so I can just get through them with out havng to experience weeks of pain. I like their writing.
Then there are stories that just give me the hebejebies. When the puke meter pegs, I just stop reading the story. I don't comment to the author because even the authors of pukky stories have feelings.
I'm sure that some of my own stories make people want to puke, but I have only had people be nasty to me a couple times, so I need to return the favor.
I write about what I am passionate about. Frankly, some people have very harsh feelings about certain elements of my stories. My life has taken me in a very different direction than most T folk.
G
Two coppers
Meh I have run across story's I loved then put off the whole thing for one part of it. But it was how the writer wanted to write it or how they thought the character would talk or act. I May not agree *shrug* and if I feel strongly enough about it I will not read any more of the story, example in one of Joe Abercrombie series "the first law" there was a scene with a child that caused me to put down the book for about 2 months. But I didn't write the author about it even though I reallllllllllllllllly wanted to. Guess what I am try to say is sometimes it is just better not to say anything, and maybe just find a new story to read.
To me..
To me the fact that your asking should probably tell you what you need to know. If you're worried enough about the consequences of posting the comment that you feel you need to ask the community, then it's probably best that you don't comment.
I find that when there's any doubt at all, it's usually best to err on the side of caution.
Have delightfully devious day,
Be Positive, Don't Be Personal
There is absolutely nothing wrong with offering strong criticism provided that a) it's directed at the story rather than the author, and b) that it contains suggestions as to how the author's next piece might improve. As David Bowie said during the intro to one of the episodes from the tv series The Hunger, if you want to change the world, you must accept the judgement of the world or all you're doing is masturbating.
What I always ask myself before making comments is 'what's this author trying to achieve?' Some will be struggling to express deep-seated feelings, often with a relatively limited vocabulary or grasp of basic sentence construction - I never forget that English may not be their first language - whilst other, more experienced writers might be experimenting with characters and situations, many of which won't come off for the simple reason that they've over-reached themselves. In both of these examples the criticism should be tailored to the author's specific objectives so that they can assess how well they've met them.
The author-reader relationship on sites such as this is a symbiotic one. If readers want better fiction they have to know how to encourage authors to produce it. If writers include material a section of their audience considers offensive or inappropriate, they need to be told.
Everything is offensive
Every story on this site offends someone. Trust me on this. :) In the past people have complained about being offended by such things as crossdressing and sex reassignment surgery, girdles and cigarettes, children, magic, science fiction, animals, you name it.
So, no, just because a story offends you does not mean the author should be told about it. In fact, that's one reason I will remove a comment, is if all it is is someone telling the author they found something offensive. That's the reader's problem, not the author's as far as I am concerned. Bring the subject up in a blog if it really offends you.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
My opinion. It's from different culture, but...
Comment should not contain personal insults. It's a basic courtesy to send comments about spelling mistakes by PM, but in my experience those are always ignored :-)
Also on this site in my experience comments that could lead to questioning of sanity of Christian religions are also unwelcome :-)
(Erin tends to discriminate against agnosticism ;-) (Erin, "nothing personal", but religious people tend to produce in me reaction only my mom is able to produce in normal circumstances :-) )) (and yes, by the parenthesis you can say that I used to be a programmer :-) ).
Not really
I don't discriminate against agnosticism any more than I discriminate against any other religious or political view. But comments based on a reader being offended by religious or political content have to meet a high standard of friendliness.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Comments
Living on the other side of the planet, at least from the folks in the U.S., I am often late to these blogs, but I wanted to add a thought here anyway. When it comes to the discussion of what is an appropriate comment, I always find myself wanting to ask:
“What are you trying to accomplish with the comment?â€
If the answer to that question has a positive implication, then by all means make the comment, even if it is critical, but make sure that the positive side is seen. If the answer has a negative implication, then skip the comment as you are not trying to accomplish anything useful.
Critical comments, given in a positive light, help improve the skills of those of us that try to tell a story, so maybe the next one is a little better. If the problem is story content, then select the ‘do not read’ option and let it go. If it is an author that you have enjoyed in the past, but not so much on this newest piece then let them know in a PM. I personally have received a few of these. It is okay, not all content is suitable for all people.
I have received comments, and PMs, about grammatical errors, technical errors, and storyline errors. All of which I think are perfectly fine, as they help me improve. I have also received comments and PMs that basically told me I don’t know how to write. Though maybe true, I failed to see the positive implication in the comment, thus should have fallen into the ‘skip the comment’ category.
Anyway, my thoughts on the subject.
MT
Comment Etiquette is simple,
leave positive comments Anything negative, send as a PM about any grammar. Even then, be constructive.
May Your Light Forever Shine
Why Comment
I very rarely comment on stories anymore. I've had too many comments, and even blog posts, removed. It really hurts to spend time writing a thoughtful critique, or to analyze a plot and suggest how it might have been improved, or even to explain my own reaction, only to have the comment erased or "unpubbed" by one of the administrators. My reaction to some of the comments and blog posts of mine that have been removed is that the administrators were being overly sensitive. Sensitive of everything, of course, except my feelings.
So, these days, unless I enjoy a story enough to just write a couple lines of praise, I don't say anything. The only thing I can do is stop reading that author. It's a shame, because I'll never know if they improved, or ever have a chance to make a new friend.
Parenthetically, my feelings have been hurt enough that I completely lost interest in writing anything of my own. Not that I ever wrote a lot, but for a while it was great feeling like I belonged here, but then I was as much as told that I didn't.
(By the way, I'm betting this comment will be removed, too! The site administrators seem particular sensitive to any sort of even mild criticism.) Thanks for reading, though.
Sorry you feel that way
I frankly don't remember removing many of your remarks and I don't feel that the requirements here to be civil and friendly are onerous or capriciously enforced. The times I do remember something of yours being removed was when they were part of a longer argumentative thread and it was remove all or nothing.
Also, the idea that we are particularly sensitive to even mild criticism I will frankly say is a gross exaggeration. I don't tolerate being called names or being told WHY I did something when the person speaking has no way of knowing that and I'd much rather have complaints aired in private. I also don't tolerate people carping on things done on other sites.
But I'm put in the situation of trying to defend myself in public which has in the past simply lead to flame wars. Justifying and re-justifying my decisions again and again would mean not actually doing the stuff around here that needs doing. And my policies are in place to prevent the sort of bickering that goes on on other sites. Case in point, why I do not respond to Ole Ulfson above, we've gone over every one of his points in public and private before but he still wants to continue public wrangling and accusations.
There has to be an end and the end is removing comments that are leading or are likely leading to flames and bad feelings. Sometimes, I have removed comments that were perfectly innocuous in intent but resulted in misunderstandings and lashings out by more than one other commenter. And sometimes, I have removed comments when requested to by the author, even though I disagreed with the author's assessment of the commenter's message or intent.
Because it has happened more than once that an unfriendly exchange here has resulted in stories being pulled and worse. In the end I have to trust my own judgement, assisted by a handful of volunteers.
And I make the same challenge again and again, you want to run a site because you think you can do better than I, I've got server room and even domains I can let you use for free. Build something. I've been at this for fourteen years, and it ain't as easy as I make it look.
It's all about the stories here, everything else, even comments are secondary.
How much were you willing to bet? :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
You and your readers and members may be surprised...
To learn that you and I actually agree without reservation on a very important point: Ad hominem arguments should NEVER be allowed on this or any other site!!! This is basic courtesy as that would constitute a personal attack on a member. I only state this, lest the members here think we never agree on anything, which you know isn't true.
Ole
We are each exactly as God made us. God does not make mistakes!
Gender rights are the new civil rights!
Critique or Criticism?
Rami, you asked a great question, which did stir the pot. However, after reading the comments, I'm not sure that you got an answer.
My sense of open forums, such as this, is that critique is generally viewed to be criticism. And, criticism is generally taken as a personal attack. As a result, I'm not sure how to comment.
However, I would think that if a subject could be raised as a generalization, then it would be treated more philosophically by the majority of readers, and comments would be more cogent and less 'flaming' than might otherwise be true. For instance, you raised this subject, seeking and receiving a relatively rational and reasoned response.
So you should be prepared to receive 'flak' from some readers who may feel that their particular point of view has been harmed, and that, by doing so, you have initiated the 'end of days'!
Regardless, that's my position, and I'm sticking with it! ;-D
Red MacDonald
Thank you
I would like to thank you all for your replies to my questions and for the Pm's I received. Many of your replies have been helpful, but actually the answer was given to me by one author who left a comment on the story that concerned me that said quite cogently what I wanted to say. That author did it a civil manner and did not attack the author, just raised some questions as to what occurred in the story. So basically my problem was my inability to say what I wanted to say.
Erin thank you for allowing this discussion to go forward. I think your replies to many comments showed what a wonderful administrator you are. If this caused any grief, I apologize.
Thank you again
Rami
RAMI