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In reading some responses to Bike 883 the subject of cross-dressers, and motivation came up. From my perspective the exchange was more then a little dismissive of Cross dressers. I am posting this as a blog, because I don't want to hijack the comments on Anghard's story.
For example Kimmie responded:
... because I seriously doubt that Annette's acquaintance's wearing of men's attire has anything to do with her wanting to express her 'masculine' side. The latter has been in general the proffered motivation for at least a portion of CDs.
Clearly the reasons are probably different.
So yeah, if men can socially wear dresses without limits then what would be their motivation at that point?
Now I grant you that can be read a couple of ways, the first being that Cross Dressers do so for different reasons then Annette's friend. True enough. But I think the subtle subtext based on the phrasing of "proffered motivation" in the previous sentence, along with prior comments that Kimmie has made, I suspect she was calling that motivation into question. Feel free to elaborate in response Kimmie, I'd like to know.
Kimmie was responding to Briar's question about what would CD's do if the world went to Unisex clothing, i.e. we all got to wear dresses. I sincerely doubt that we will ever reach a time when clothing will be completely unisex. The different shapes to the body lead to a natural difference in cut, and there will most likely be some differences between the clothing of the genders.
Speaking as one of those that does Crossdress to let that part of me out... And who is not fetishistic about it, I don't get aroused because I dress. If I am aroused when I dress it is because of other stimuli, such as my beautiful wife.
It seems to me they are lumping all CrossDressers into a bucket based on one portion of the community, and that accordingly, those like myself are deluding themselves.
For the record, I don't crossdress to wear a dress, or a bra, or any of the other things that I do. When I crossdress I am trying to let the girl inside have some time out. Writing here, also helps with that. In my situation, I don't get nearly enough time for this, and I take the opportunities I can when I can.
It isn't the fact that it is a dress, the robe like clothing of the cultures mentioned in the various responses are men's clothing, as are the Scottish Kilts, and don't interest me at all. Kristy wants, no needs, to feel like she is seeing the light of day, even for a little while, it is a comfortable feeling and a major form of stress release to just relax and be able to let her out, not having to guard what I say or do.
I'm not saying there aren't fetishistic crossdressers, there are, and they have just as much right to their bit of happiness as any of us. But they are a subset of the cross-dressing community, just as the non-fetishistic crossdressers are a subset of the cross-dressing community and just as both are a subset of the overall Transgender community.
Kristy
Comments
Well said Kristine
There are so many variables going into our personalities--and those variables are truly continuous (not simply black/white, on/off)--that pigeon-holing people with simple acronyms is doing a great disservice to the person involved. It's like saying that there is only one form of intelligence and that form must be either On or Off (brain dead or utter genius).
Even our community gets caught up in the "definition war" too often. It is good to avoid complete anarchy in the words we use, of course. Describing the color of a vibrant sky as "crimson" is going to confuse everyone--unless we happen to be visiting another planet. My feeling is that using stock phrases and acronyms is convenient shorthand, but an explanation of how you've used them is often appropriate. Quibbling over how one has used terms such as CD, TG, etc. is not.
SuZie
SuZie
What I've believe I've observed..perhaps subjectively I'll admit
...is that while transsexuals may often discuss their own feelings and reasons for having surgery and consequently, transitioning to living a certain way, I have yet to see anyone call into question those same reasons. They discuss and comment, but no one asks them in this manner, "Just why did you do that." What I do see, frequently however, are questions that seek the "rationale" for cross-dressing, as if somehow we needed to provide reasons for how we felt and acted. I find that another example of how some remarks and questions and comments, however well-intended, become insensitive and even unfair. I would never presume to call into question anyone's actions or decisions regarding their personal life, but I feel that is what is often required of cross-dressers. I'd expect my brother-in-law, who doesn't know any better,to ask that, but I still remain surprised that those same questions are asked frequently in comments and replies here.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Nobody is calling in the question per se
of the fact crossdressers have a NEED to crossdress.
However, the outlet has to be a reflection of something. There are of course clothesless societies of which the aborigines in there original culture were pretty much the case. For transsexuals, it is pretty clear for the most part, their core physical gender is incompatible with their mental perception of what their physical body should be. A TS could stand around in a clothesless society and still say their is something wrong.
So the question still stands, what would be the route to relief as Kristine mentions be achieved without such a thing as clothing. As far as clothing goes, for a while, China was as close to a near unisex clothing society as one can imagine, if only VERY briefly. Keep in mind also that Asian men and women, at least when very young, look very similar. Asian men do not tend to look very masculine when young ( say up to their 20s. ) As a consequence, dressed in identical clothing there is minimal difference in looks. Need I mention that Asian women can be kinda (very) small breasted too ?
The answer I suspect I am hearing is to somehow imitate women in other ways, short of surgery of course.
And before anybody burns me as a witch about what my perceived view of CDs are, keep in mind that I have been happily involved in my community and have friends of all stripes. FWIW, I have been going to a gender event for over 20 years now that is mostly CD oriented just to meet up with old friends who are happily CD and we do it with joyful anticipation that we will all meet up again. And yes, my friends say the same thing that Kristine says with regard to why they dress. However, a running joke among the CDs I know is God forbid they would run into a clothesless society . It just does not matter between me and my friends.
I think it will come down to, I suspect, it will depend on the society and the role expected of males in that society.
Kim
Kimmie - It's not the clothes.
Kimmie,
It's not the clothes. Clothes are just props, they are an external trigger to assist in the mood and the role. For many reasons I am not going to physically alter my body. If you read my follow up response to Khadijah further down this blog, you will see that is a very conscious decision on my part.
You will also see that long before I was crossdressing, I knew that there was something different, just not as strongly as those that are TS. Kristy is a part of who I am, she is integrated into my psyche as much as my masculine part is.
Again it's not about the clothes. For me it is an overwhelming curiosity about what it would be like to be in a female body. What do real breasts feel like, what would it be to not have a penis, but to have a vagina. What is a female orgasm like compared with the male one? What about menstruation (though I'm sure I would dislike that as much as any GG, or at least my wife assures me I would) and pregnancy and birth. This is what drives me, is the absolute curiosity of these things that I can never, ever know.
It is a constant ache, for me it is usually managable, but at times the pain of knowing that I can never know, causes me to cry myself to sleep.
While some of these questions can be answered with surgery, I know myself well enough to know that it is not the right answer for me. I would not be happier with surgery.
If tomorrow they invent a pill or a machine or a Heinlienian process of rejuvanation, that could truly make me biologically female, I would have to rethink it. My current feeling is that I'm content to spend one lifetime as a man, but not two. If there is anything to re-incarnation and some afterlife committee tries to send me back as a male again, I will demand a recount, been there done that.
Some might say that this means I'm not really a CD at all, that I'm actually a TS that is not willing or able to accept that. But that isn't true. I would be a horrible candidate, and would never ever be accepted, because I'm content with my life as it is, as long as Kristy has some time to be.
And its not about dressing in a dress. I rarely get to wear skirts or dresses, because my 14yo son, does not know about Kristy. He has his more then enough challenges of his own, that he does not need to be burdened with mine. Kristy gets most of her time at night. After he has gone to bed, when my wife and I get ready for bed, I can put on my bra to hold my forms, and a nightgown. Kristy gets to feel a little like she has her breasts, that she exists in the real world for just a little while, and can relax and go to sleep. When I get up in the morning and have to get ready to face another day, removing those forms is like tearing a part of me off, and I dread it. I procrastinate as long as I can before do so.
There are rare days when I am home and my son is at school, and those days I can let Kristy out more dramatically. But even then, I'm usually working around the house, so its not a dress or skirt, but maybe the woman's champion sweats and a nice top. Those days are wonderful, because Kristy gets to be free for hours at a time, and I cherish those rare days.
But even without the clothes, without the forms, or any of the other CD stuff, Kristy is here. She comes out in my writing, in my time in the chat room with the friends I have met here. She comes out when I watch a "chick flick" (I'm far more likely to then my wife) She comes out in the fact that my wife and I have never been ones to follow the sterotypical gender roles. Kristy is always there, and would be there in a clothesless society.
I can't speak for other CD's, but I know of others that feel very much the way I do. My pain is real, Kimmie, believe me it is. The clothing and forms and such are props, they help me to feel that Kristy is pushing out from within, giving her prime time so to speak. She is always there. I am Kristy, and Kristy is me.
Your assertion that where would a CD be without the clothing disregards those of us that, like myself, are motivated by something beyond the sexual stimulation and taboo of a man wearing women's clothing. There are plenty like that, no question, and there is nothing wrong with those that do CD for that reason, but for those of us that don't, such assertions marginalize our pain, and our motivations. It is hurtful, even if unintentional.
Kristine
Yes and No
My situation is somewhat similar to yours, with some differences: my partner wants a man in bed beside her, not a woman, so Penny is active during the day and evening. Also, my sons are full adults, so I have no problems dressing in front of them.
Yes and No? Well, I agree with much of what you're saying, but I think a number of TG/TS folk underrate an important fact about certain female clothing: they are very powerful symbols that shout woman. Specifically (and of course I'm talking about the "Western World" most BCTS readers live in) skirts, dresses and brassieres. To 'normal' people these garments should only be worn by persons of the female gender, and the symbolism is so strong that persons who wear such items are expected to behave in certain well-established ways consistent with being female.
That's more or less what we want, of course. On the other hand, a normal woman might find the idea of a man in a skirt to be threatening since it either devalues the symbol or implies that the wearer is trying to usurp the privileges that women receive. Women are treated differently to men, so where a man tries to be a woman when women come out ahead, it's cheating, and when men come out ahead, well, why would a man do that? Women don't like men co-opting "their" symbols.
Yes, it's all about what's inside. Almost all here would agree with that. But don't underestimate the importance of clothing. Sometimes one requires a little external help to put one in the right frame of mind, and the right clothing can contribute to that. Many here will have served in the military, and any one of those will tell you the difference that pulling on a uniform can make.
Finally, there are other considerations. I actively prefer wearing skirts and dresses - when I get the opportunity - since I find that they actually fit my body shape better. I have a large pelvic girdle which, while still more of a male configuration than a female one, makes wearing trousers uncomfortable. I find a lot of women's clothes just fit me better, and now I can wear them more often, I feel more comfortable. In the heat of summer, wearing a light dress is always going to win over T-shirt and shorts.
Penny
Penny, Thanks, perhaps you
Penny,
Thanks, perhaps you put it better then I did, but that is what I meant by saying that the clothing is a prop that helps to push Kristy out. It is the symbol as you put it, but it wouldn't mean anything, if Kristy wasn't there inside me already.
My wife prefers to sleep with a man too, but she accepts that my needs are important, and can remember that her husband is there under the nightgown. It works for us. We usually do not have any clothes on during sex, because she does want her husband then.
Hugs,
Kristy
All I know is I am.
I progressed from masturbatory cross dresser, to fetishistic cross dresser, and one day I woke up and had me own Vagina. Geeze, what a whirlwind!
There are the high need for order people out there who simply must label everything, have it in order, and I think they are a right pain in the arse, and I think that they can jolly well "F" OFF! Some of us, though I have no idea of the numbers were raised as Girls. Mother always said that I was a pretty little girl and I wore dresses until between 4 and 5 years old. This cycle was broken by my step father and he was such a mean and brutal person that I never ever wanted to emulate him.
All this is a very twisty story, and reading your blog, I wonder if I would have been um "normal", had I not had that early experience as a child.
I do know that as a male I was shy, and tongue tied. I hated myself and life was horrible. Now, I am remembering last night, and going out to dinner with a dear friend (genetic woman). We sat in an African Resturant eating lamb tips and lentils with that funny spongy bread with my right hand and no utensils. She is an Agnostic and wore pants and a top, and I sat there in my Hijab and all the "stuff". We had a great time, laughing and frantically gesturing about silly things like the bastard who is trying to trash her at work, and my experience with offering to do "Men" work on a volunteer basis.
When I told her about that, she was suitably shocked, "Khadijah, you are going to get in so much trouble!"
"But Hindi, I told him that I did not want to step on anyone's toes and above all I could not be 'in trouble', and if he did not think I should do that, then I would withdraw my offer."
It had been one of many fun times I have shared with her and others from time to time.
I think all the labelers should just shut the "F" up and leave us to find our own way in life.
Khadijah
CD or Not CD
I'm sure you didn't mean the comment to hurt Gwen, but when you said you "progressed" from a fetisher CD to having a vagina, that was a mouthful. The word "progressed" usually means advanced or developed.
I agree with Kristine and identify strongly with how she has discribed her life.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
No offense meant
I am sorry Angela. In some ways my life makes no sense to me at all, but I have learned to laugh at it. Here, I've thrown a hand grenade in a cess pool and come up with a brand new life! Often our lives do not make any sense at all but we must go on with a view of the desired results.
Who'd a thought it? I came out of total chaos, raised a nice family, and am now a Muslim Princess! Spins me 'ead, eet does!
Khadijah
Kristy, I re read you're blog!
I agree with what you say. I aplaud your ability to keep it all in a spot in your life and not allow it to totally destroy you.
Thank you Khadijah, I also
Thank you Khadijah,
I also saw your own blog, and I know that you have had a tough life, and are making the best of it.
Myself, I've been fortunate. My earliest memories from 2nd grade or earlier, I cannot place the time, were a couple of times experimenting with a bra in the laundry. Its a very fuzzy memory, and there was clearly no sexual connection at the time.
I know that by 3rd grade ( we moved the summer between 2nd and 3rd grade which is why that is a hard memory distinction ) I was going to sleep at night making up stories about aliens changing me into a girl.
I had several stuffed animals, but the most important one to those memories, was a stuffed Snoopy. It was Snoopy's head, but the rest was a rocket ship. Every night, I would put Snoopy's rocket through the bars of my headboard, and Snoopy would take me to far away places, and usually I would end up transformed.
One summer my Aunt and Uncle and their two daughters stayed with us while their new home was being finished. The four of us played alot of pretend. One game that stands out, was a game where everybody got pregnant at the drop of the hat, including the boys. I don't remember much else about that game, but I know I was one of the ones that suggested it.
I wrote my first TG fiction story and turned it into a teacher when I was in either 4th or 5th grade; again, I can't place the timing, but it was definitely before I hit puberty.
When puberty did finally hit, and I started to cross dress whenever I could, it did for the time being begin with a confusion between the two. I was and am a heterosexual male in that sense. And putting on a bra and thinking about breasts was erotic. Thinking about Vagina's was also erotic. But my fantasies tended to be more about a girl I was interested in, and my "alien" friends swapping us for some reason that would not work well in a fiction story. (Plot device! Just accept it.)
As I grew older, the two became seperated. As I said, dressing is not a cause for arousal in me, it is a release of a different sort. I think from the above it is clear that there has been a girl in me trying to get out my whole life.
When I take my son to school and see his female peers walking into school, it hurts. To see them and to know that I lost the meoitic lottery, with a blasted 50/50 chance none the less, hurts. But for me, that hurt is a wistful longing, an ache for something I can never have.
That said, I have long since realized that SRS would not make me a happier person. I can understand how those for whom that pain is stronger, sharper it is the right answer, and I am pleased the option is available, and support my sister's for whom that is the right answer.
But it's not enough for me, I don't hate my male life enough, the pain is not sharp enough for that path to be justified in my mind. I love my wife, and I love my son, and I am fortunate enough that my wife is able to accept that Kristy IS a part of who I am, and to give me time to let Kristy see the light of day, that I can be content with who I am.
There are days, when the pain is greater then other days. But its real, and is just as real as anyone else's here. Which is why when I see comments that seem to marginalize my existence, to imply that I'm not TG, because I'm not TS, well that hurts.
Khadijah, even though I'm writing this in response to your reply, it is more a string of consciousness triggered by this whole topic...
Sorry... (sniff) I have to go find my kleenex now...
Hugs,
Kristy
I was attempting to point out...
that there may be many motivations for a person to dress/present in a way that is counter to what the general society considers the "norm" for male or female. I was also trying to point out that there are, perhaps, double standards. A female can wear male attire, up to and including formal attire, and most of US society does no more than wonder at her. If a male wears a dress, in most circles it's not considered acceptable except as a joke/for fun (say a costume at Halloween) or as a penalty for a bet (recently on TV) or as part of entertainment (though there, there are limits).
The friend I referenced, dresses that way, because she PREFERs to. Yes, she is very athletic, but she very definitely considers herself to be a SHE, and from what she says is not trying to let out her male side. She goes to work 5 days a week with suit/tie; grabs a newspaper & gets her shoes shined at the stand; etc., much like her male colleagues.
Annette
Annette, I did not have an
Annette, I did not have an issue with your post. I think your point is very appropriate.
Hugs,
Kristy
Another Voice:
Mine.
One of the errors a lot of people who look at the TG community and try to seek some sort of mental orderliness of what is a pretty hodge-podged picture, make, is to try to put us all on one continuum, one axis if you will. Somewhere on one end are people happy with their birth gender. Somewhere on the other end is people who are Transsexuals. In the middle, they assume that crossdressers dwell, neither here nor there, but on the same journey as people who have gone from one end to the other.
This is wrong. Completely wrong.
None of us is on one single axis with our sexuality-related characteristics. One model I like puts us on seven axes, each and every one of us, from cisgendered to post-op, gay and straight, dom and sub. Presentation is one of those axes. Birth sex another. Mental gender another. Gay, bi, straight, yet another. With one single axis, you cannot describe even a small subset of people. With seven, you have better classification tools to not make a complete fool of yourself.
The classic crossdresser, e.g. me, is not a person who is in between where they started and their "goal". We ARE at our "goal." We're crossdressers, not transsexual wannabes. This is who we are. We have a trans-gender presentation. Our gender is our birth-gender. Our sexuality can be gay or straight. We're not unhappy with who we are or how we were born. We're not going to change and suddenly want to change our bodies to match our minds. They already do. It's our wardrobes we want to change.
Don't try ascribing motives to why we are who we are, or predictions of what we will become. Those of you who are not crossdressers can't understand us by extrapolating from your own experiences. It doesn't work like that. In my case, I'm a straight married monogamous male, comfortable with my body, who has a female presentation. My favorite thing to do with this presentation is go hang out at a women's (i.e. lesbian) bar, put my name on the chalkboard, and wait my turn at the pool table. I have a drink, chat with the women, joke, laugh, and usually get my ass beat by much better players than me. Sometimes get into a serious conversation, learn a lot, and enjoy the social aspects. Then, I go home, usually pretty happy, where my wife is happy to see me happy, and everyone lives happily ever after.
___________________
If a picture is worth 1000 words, this is at least part of my story.
My point exactly
Pippa,
My point is that the motivations for CD's are all different, and that trying to lump everyone together and assuming motivations is the problem I was relaying.
My experience, if I was not clear, are mine. I'm not speaking for anyone but me when I speak of my motivation, I can't.
Kristy
I Like What You've Said,
Kristine and also what Penny said. I tried to remember my feelings when I thought I was "just" a crossdresser. The strongest feeling was getting dressed, in make-up and looking in the mirror. I felt like: Oh! Hi! There you are. It's so great to see you again; where "you" was my real self. The things you two, and others wrote really rang true.
This might get me in trouble with some TSs, actually, I have no idea, but how you feel is much like how I felt. At the time, I didn't know how wonderful it was/is to be out in public and treated as a womyn by everyone. Also, I knew about TSs, but I didn't have the confidence to think that I could be one.
One thing was very different for me. For years I had emotionally suffered having everyone think of me as and treat me like a male. I was in a deep depression and my feelings were sort of numb or frozen to reduce the pain. As soon as I found that I was accepted as a womyn in public, knew others who were transitioning and that I could do it, too, I just couldn't stand to pretend to be "a man" any longer. I hated it too much.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Ready for work, 1992.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Thank you Renee for your
Thank you Renee for your thoughts.
I can't say it strongly enough, I am so happy that you found your way to happiness. For those where the pain is just too much, and the need that strong, it is a medical miracle that these options exist today, and my heart breaks for anyone going through that and the journey that it takes.
For me, I don't hate being male, at least not most of the time. There are days. But then when I take the Gender tests, I fall somewhere along the middle, leaning towards masculine sometimes, or feminine others depending on the day and the test. I suspect if I were female, I'd probably be TG the other way...
I think if I could make a wish, what I would really want is the ability to put on my gender in the morning, based on how do I feel today, and what do I need to do today.
I had to laugh a little reading your second sentence. Much like what Angela said to Khadijah about how she said "regarding her progression," my immediate thought when you said, "just" a crossdressor, was what? Yet I know implicitly that you didn't mean that as a denigration of those of us that are CD's. So I had to step back and ask myself, where does that language come from.
Maybe as Pippa indicated the problem comes from the way we talk about TG being a line, and people falling somewhere along the line, so that leads to terms like progress, or "just." Really it should be more of a Set, to use math terminology. TG being the superset, and CD and TS being subsets that make up the global set. Within each of those subsets would be additional subsets. And frankly there is overlap between some of these sets, common ground that brings us together.
I'm not bringing this up to be combative, your post was refreshing, and appreciated. So I hope you will take the these musings in the spirit I intend which is just one of curiosity over the way that our symbols shape our thoughts and our language, and how they can lead to misunderstanding.
Thanks again - and I truly am happy that you found the path to happiness for you, and I appreciate your sharing.
Hugs,
Kristy